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COH2.ORG » Forums » Parlor Room » COH2 Central » COH2 Balance » su85 feels somewhat nerfed.

su85 feels somewhat nerfed.

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frostbite
9 May 2016, 21:59 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 May 2016, 21:55 PMHorasu
I notice that you completely ignore sensible arguments for the su-85 changes and repeat the same "30% less damage hurr" shill over and over again.

im not ignoring any arguments. what about all the things im pointing out and stating its as if im being ignored if anything.
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RiCE
10 May 2016, 12:21 PM
#42
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Posts: 284

It received accuracy and penetration buff, so OBVIOUSLY the rapid fire mode had to go...

its a fair trade imo...

SU85 is a pretty neat TD now..
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TickTack
10 May 2016, 12:39 PM
#43
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 May 2016, 14:27 PMluvnest

If you have units in the field which basically do the scouting for you there is no need for using focus-sight, since it decreases the su85's maneuverability and makes it vulnurable for unexpected flanks. There is nothing wrong though with doing little sneak peaks if you have no units in the field, just be aware of the cooldown of the ability. I mean it's basically an increased line of sight ability, so use it when you need it and if there are not enemy tanks incoming.

Ok, cool - seems like you're not suggesting we have to change how we use the SU85 too much.
It's Relic's responsibility.
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RedT3rror
10 May 2016, 14:33 PM
#44
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Old SU-85 vet3 engaging a Panther(<vet2) while moving, on max distance is doing 88% of its original dps. (Pen*vet2_accuracy*(vet2+vet3_rof)*accuracy while moving)

The "buffed" SU-85 vet3 will do: 61% of the original dps.

Edit: Corrected values are 44% vs 44%.
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Bananenheld
10 May 2016, 15:20 PM
#45
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 14:33 PMRedT3rror
Old SU-85 vet3 engaging a Panther(<vet2) while moving, on max distance is doing 88% of its original dps. (Pen*vet2_accuracy*(vet2+vet3_rof)*accuracy while moving)

The "buffed" SU-85 vet3 will do: 61% of the original dps.
What are the absolute numbers (time to kill) to kill a vet 2 panther old vs. New?
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Mr.Smith
10 May 2016, 15:48 PM
#46
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 14:33 PMRedT3rror
Old SU-85 vet3 engaging a Panther(<vet2) while moving, on max distance is doing 88% of its original dps. (Pen*vet2_accuracy*(vet2+vet3_rof)*accuracy while moving)

The "buffed" SU-85 vet3 will do: 61% of the original dps.


You forgot to factor in the penetration and the accuracy buffs!

I did a quick calculation for mid range, and the new SU-85 is going to be 99% as efective as the old SU-85 vs targets with armour equal or above 300.

DPS on turretless tank-hunters is a bit misleading. If you are really good, you will always have the target in front of you. Otherwise, your SU-85 will spend a lot of time rotating to catch up. That rotation time would hit the old SU-85 much harder than it would hit the new one. This is the same reason why the old USF AT gun (which was trading penetration for rate of fire) was a horrible, horrible gun.

On the flipside, SU-85 will always penetrate on targets below 300.
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
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Arclyte
10 May 2016, 16:26 PM
#47
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Posts: 692

gonna stack those +5% penetration bulletins son

get rekt krupp steel
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RedT3rror
10 May 2016, 16:54 PM
#48
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 15:20 PMBananenheld
What are the absolute numbers (time to kill) to kill a vet 2 panther old vs. New?


Assuming the SU-85 is vet2, stationary and we ignore cooldown and gun rotation. The old SU-85 will need about 38 seconds or 14 shots to destroy a vet2 Panther on max range.

The new one will need about 40 seconds or 7-8 shots.
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frostbite
10 May 2016, 17:03 PM
#49
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 16:54 PMRedT3rror


Assuming the SU-85 is vet2, stationary and we ignore cooldown and gun rotation. The old SU-85 will need about 29 seconds or 11 shots to destroy a vet2 Panther on max range.

The new one will need about 40 seconds or 8 shots.
thx for info
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elchino7
10 May 2016, 18:17 PM
#50
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Reminder that time to kill is not the ultimate stat to look at.
Most engagements do not last that long and alpha strike is important as well.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

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Kothre
11 May 2016, 02:53 AM
#51
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Posts: 431

I like that Relic tried to make the SU-85 a slow-firing, high penetration tank destroyer. However, I think that role would be better suited to an SU-100. I hope Relic will consider making the SU-85 more similar to its older role (albeit with better accuracy), then make the SU-100 the heavy killer.
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UGBEAR
11 May 2016, 03:26 AM
#52
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Posts: 954

Su-85 feels like a heavy hitter (though I prefer that its model should be replace by a SU-100)

But soviet T4 is generally not worth getting for its extra costs and unit selection
jump backJump back to quoted post8 Nov 2015, 18:05 PMd0ggY
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think


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vietnamabc
11 May 2016, 05:04 AM
#53
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Posts: 1063

Hey so the new Su-85 does it do 200dmg/shot like Jackson/Firefly or old 160dmg? Cuz I'll take alpha over dps everyday.
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DaciaJC
11 May 2016, 12:47 PM
#54
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Posts: 73

jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 05:04 AMvietnamabc
Hey so the new Su-85 does it do 200dmg/shot like Jackson/Firefly or old 160dmg? Cuz I'll take alpha over dps everyday.


Pretty sure it's the old 160.
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frostbite
11 May 2016, 15:05 PM
#55
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Posts: 593

jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 05:04 AMvietnamabc
Hey so the new Su-85 does it do 200dmg/shot like Jackson/Firefly or old 160dmg? Cuz I'll take alpha over dps everyday.

it does a thrilling 160 dmg
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Myself
11 May 2016, 16:13 PM
#56
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Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 16:54 PMRedT3rror


Assuming the SU-85 is vet2, stationary and we ignore cooldown and gun rotation. The old SU-85 will need about 29 seconds or 10-11 shots to destroy a vet2 Panther on max range.

The new one will need about 40 seconds or 7-8 shots.


You number are off, these are the DPS of SU-85 (vet2) vs Panther (vet2)

su85_d5t_85mm__mp 29.81 29.31 28.81 25.48 22.26 19.13 16.10
su85 new.--------------- 25.10 24.75 24.40 24.05 23.71 23.36 22.09

The old SU-85 becomes better only below 40...
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RedT3rror
11 May 2016, 16:49 PM
#57
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 16:13 PMMyself


You number are off, these are the DPS of SU-85 (vet2) vs Panther (vet2)

su85_d5t_85mm__mp 29.81 29.31 28.81 25.48 22.26 19.13 16.10
su85 new.--------------- 25.10 24.75 24.40 24.05 23.71 23.36 22.09

The old SU-85 becomes better only below 40...


Mind telling me your formula?
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Myself
11 May 2016, 16:51 PM
#58
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 16:49 PMRedT3rror


Mind telling me your formula?


The one Relic uses, I simply made the changes in the xls file...
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RedT3rror
11 May 2016, 18:07 PM
#59
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Naively I used the wrong accuracy values from the preview notes(damn you relic). This made the old one look much better than the new one. Values have been adjusted.

Here´s how I calculated for the Panther(vet2) comparison: (accuracy against panther)*1.3[accuracy for new SU-85 is 1. So that part is only needed for the old one]*(chance to penetrate)*160*(bonus rate of fire)/(reload) = DPS

Panther health/DPS = seconds needed
seconds needed/reload = amount of shots
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Myself
11 May 2016, 18:26 PM
#60
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 18:07 PMRedT3rror

Here´s how I calculated for the Panther(vet2) comparison:

a bit more complicated than that:

you can use this formula if you want:

Calculating DPS
provided by cruz
Total damage:
accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)*damage(cover)*penetration(range, armor)*burst bullets(range, moving)*(1+reload frequency)
Burst bullets:
1 if single fire, otherwise Burst duration(range, moving)*rate of fire(range)

Time required:
(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)

DPS: total damage/time required

Accuracy, penetration chance are capped at 1. Burst duration for non burst weapons is 0.125 (this game generally operates on 8 ticks a second, any amount of time is rounded to the closest 0.125). You will have to adjust rate of fire, burst duration, accuracy, cooldown and reload duration all with range. The one -cooldown is because there won't be a cooldown after the last burst before a reload.
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