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Why change the spawn system?

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23 Apr 2016, 10:25 AM
#61
avatar of rymetyme09

Posts: 75

After reading all the replies here i see that it is a 2 side thing on this subject and like some has mentioned if this change would go live i think Relic should have a option to have units spawn off the map if people want too since not everyone here plays 1 vs 1 and likes the way the current spawn system is then i assume both sides would be happy?

For me, they can go ahead with this IF they give an option for others to have units spawn off map if they like the way the current system is
23 Apr 2016, 11:41 AM
#62
avatar of boc120

Posts: 245

I like the current spawn system.
23 Apr 2016, 12:11 PM
#63
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 890

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 08:36 AMnee
Because money.

Change it up dramatically every year or so to revive interest in the game, either through generating hype or re-attracting players that have since left.

I don't agree, the only real difference is that instead of building nay tier anywhere in HQ sector, most people will now build at the edge. Which in mosts cases isn't a really big deal. Only faction that benefits is OKW...if in the rare chance tat you both have an OKW player that deploys trucks as close to the enemy as possible, AND somehow the enemy doesn't home in on them with artillery for instant squad wipe on Obersoldaten spawn.

As for deploying outside of map, I liked it: it didn't matter where you built your tier building, unless it happened to block the spawn point. The only remote problem was the enemy parks a unit at the spawn point to rape new units coming in...which only works if the latter is a total noob and forgets about changing rally points, AND you're playing custom/ annihilation mode as spawn points are almost guarded/ really close to base emplacements.

So no, I don't see how it would get the game going faster besides placebo, nor do I think people were repulsed by the idea.
Anyways I'd like to see all the vitriol about this change in June 2013. Surely you're just over-exaggerating?


Placebo? if i construct tier1 at the edge and get the first squad spawning from there that squad will be on the field atleast 15-20 sec faster. Vcoh had spawning from buildings and callins from offmap and i never heard one fucking complaint. I swear guys who are against resonable changes have only played coh2 and league of legends.
23 Apr 2016, 12:19 PM
#64
avatar of Inverse
Coder Red Badge

Posts: 1668 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 10:11 AMEsxile


All players really? Did you do a poll to know that :D, are you including yourself since you don't play the game? How many threads have we see about this terrible system all players are frustrated off here in coh2.org?
Actual spawning system is a good compromise to not have to think how to balance spawning units from building. It has a defaut which you mention but devs can easily provide a workaround or a fix to that.

In my opinion it's a pretty objective design improvement in that it provides almost all benefits with almost no drawbacks. The only arguments against it here have cited its potential balance impact or how it's less "realistic", neither of which have any impact on design quality. And balance impact is A) impossible to predict, B) short-term, and C) easily tweaked.

If you ignore balance impact, and you should ignore balance impact when discussing fundamental design changes such as this one, the most compelling reason against the change here has been how to handle OKW's trucks. This is, in my opinion, a minor downside when compared to the massive upsides I've highlighted in this and my other posts.
23 Apr 2016, 12:40 PM
#65
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1553

Dumbest change I have ever seen. I liked the spawning out of map thing, it added more realism. Great facepalm relic, great facepalm.

But Of course CoH1 players will disagree on this
23 Apr 2016, 12:41 PM
#66
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593

After all these changes maybe we should just play vCOH considering Coh 2 is starting to look like it with all these removed "features"
23 Apr 2016, 13:06 PM
#67
avatar of Hitman5

Posts: 467

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 11:41 AMboc120
I like the current spawn system.


Agree
23 Apr 2016, 13:12 PM
#68
avatar of Inverse
Coder Red Badge

Posts: 1668 | Subs: 5

I liked the spawning out of map thing, it added more realism.

This argument just doesn't hold any weight though when that realism comes at the cost of frustrating gameplay mechanics. Not to mention how arbitrary it is that units magically appearing at set points on the edge of the map is somehow more "real" than units magically appearing beside the buildings they were created from. Both are ridiculous from a realism standpoint.
23 Apr 2016, 13:27 PM
#69
avatar of Cultist_kun

Posts: 295 | Subs: 1

Not sure how I feel about brits\OKW and USF, because you know, faction with barracks near exit will have some feelable advantage over them. Not ofcouse in first 2 squads, but on 3th+ squad they will have it.
23 Apr 2016, 13:33 PM
#70
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1095 | Subs: 1

Dumbest change I have ever seen. I liked the spawning out of map thing, it added more realism. Great facepalm relic, great facepalm.

But Of course CoH1 players will disagree on this


The americans fighting side by side with the soviets is unrealistic, half of the maps are on the eastern front and half of them are on the western front with americans/brits fighting in the east and the soviets in the west.

The LADDER game is already unrealistic as hell dude, lets at least make it competitive, kickass and a lot of fun to play
23 Apr 2016, 13:48 PM
#71
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

I feel this wasn't exactly a nuance that needed to be fixed. You could live with it in CoH2 and if you change it, it creates imbalances between WFA and EFA.

Whereas with EFA you can choose where to put your buildings, in WFA its fixed.

The only time I'll be happy with a change with the spawn system is if WFA buildings can be manually built by players at places they want rather than having the game decide this for them from the beginning of the game. Which won't happen unfortunately because Relic resources.
23 Apr 2016, 13:53 PM
#72
avatar of Crumbum

Posts: 213

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 13:12 PMInverse

Not to mention how arbitrary it is that units magically appearing at set points on the edge of the map is somehow more "real" than units magically appearing beside the buildings they were created from. Both are ridiculous from a realism standpoint.


Well a lot units aren't actually created from the building if your gonna take that view. For example the panzer corp building is where the tanks are called in/supplied etc from a realism view. Only for infantry would it make sense to pop out of buildings which they could actually have been stationed in.
23 Apr 2016, 14:29 PM
#73
avatar of Fino

Posts: 191

Yeah,its a shame if they really go ahead with it.

No really on the balance front,but because its quite the unique feature.It adds some nice flair and ambience.
23 Apr 2016, 14:32 PM
#74
avatar of rymetyme09

Posts: 75

Also, an idea IF they are gonna go ahead with this, they could spend some time making an animation of the ''unit'' you are building actually walking out of the building example with a door or something instead of just appearing, i don't think that could be much for an AAA developer to make
23 Apr 2016, 15:40 PM
#75
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 22

Alright I am going to make this very clear, changing the spawn system is a HORRIBLE idea, for obvious reasons that some people in this thread who haven't played the game for years just don't see. :foreveralone:
Reason 1: Changing the spawn would cause horrible imbalance for unit timing when for example Brits and USF have a specific base structure for their factions.
Reason 2: This whole argument for "more competitive play due to spawn positioning being defensive or aggressive now" is ridiculous considering 90% of the time unless you're unable to defend your tier building nothing will destroy it until the late game. It wont add to anything strategically to be honest other than the timing of your units coming out of your base or where you'd like to move map wise, which doesn't allow for more tactical play like some would think, unless you're in VCoH.
Reason 3: Base structures were meant to be kept INSIDE of your base, not on the outskirts unless you wanted slow reinforce times while moving onto the battlefield. It's a unique CoH2 experience putting your base structures in an assorted order that would allow for reinforcing while moving towards the front.
Reason 4: Having units spawn onto the battlefield instead of from a base structure allowed for more fluent gameplay overall for the timing of when units hit the field and when someone could anticipate an armored car or mg for example, with these changes maxim spam and sniper domination early game will become a serious issue off the bat, especially considering the other proposed changes to be implemented.

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2016, 18:08 PMInverse
The off-map spawn system was an artificial attempt to inject some realism into the game at the pure expense of gameplay. It was only there to make the game seem more "real". It had no gameplay benefit; in fact, it made gameplay worse.

First of all, it made building placement essentially irrelevant. That alone isn't really a big deal, but because Relic trimmed away strategic decision-making in so many other places at the same time, it meant one less meaningful decision for players to have to make. You could lose games in CoH1, and in pretty much every other RTS game in existence, thanks to poor building placement. CoH2 lacking that decision was just one less decision it forced players to make, and the whole point of a competitive game is forcing players to make decisions that have real consequences.

No it didn't. Building placement became more relevant than over in the fact that in CoH2, not VCoH, having building placement on one side of the base instead of another allowed for constant reinforcement on that side of the map when units were moving in that direction and were close enough to the specific base structure. It still becomes a strategic decision in that if the enemy is fighting on one side of the map where your initial tier building is not located, for example on the left hand side of your base and not the right hand side you would have to wait inside of your base circle to reinforce and then move onto the battlefield. Secondly you could decide to put your base structure in the center of your base to make it a bit easier to reinforce on other side, although limited, or you could decide to put tier 1 on one side of the base, and tier 2 on the other so you can reinforce on both sides later on in the game.

Second, it forced you to babysit your rally points. You could argue that this meant good players were able to use this to their advantage, and you would be right, but that doesn't make it less silly. If there was some other way besides rally points to decide which point units spawned at you could make a stronger argument that they added interesting gameplay, but the way they were implemented was just ridiculous.

Actually the implementation of rally points in CoH2 allowed for your units to spawn from specific sides of the battlefield instead of one specific side where you would be forced to babysit where that unit would go exactly as you had to in VCoH.

And finally, they made microing and using newly created units frustrating as fuck. A good player is going to keep track of build progress and use units the moment they're created. But thanks to the off-map spawn system, units couldn't be fully controlled unit they walked onto the map proper. The most frustrating side effect of this was the fact that you couldn't issue repair orders until the unit was on the map, which means the gameplay flow of a good player who sees a repair unit is finished, selects it, clicks on a unit to repair, and then shifts his attention to other things is completely ruined. You have to keep going back to check on that unit to see if it's on the field yet or not, and the time it takes for a unit to get on the field is different for every map, every starting position, and every spawn point. A unit should be fully usable the moment it is available to be selected; anything else is a recipe for frustration. You also couldn't view and select units the moment they spawned on some maps and in some starting positions, which meant time wasted waiting for units to walk into your camera view. You would be punished for being fast and reacting immediately to new unit production.

Actually this promotes more strategic gameplay in the fact that players would have to check their minimap or tac map to see when a repiar unit would actually hit the field and then proceed to repair, it doesn't make that much of a difference timing wise or speed wise when you'd want to repair with said unit, you could simply do other things on the battlefield and then once the repair unit was in the clear you could simply click on it and hit repair, doesn't limit your ability to still do other things before the unit is ready for use. The argument that not being able to repair right away is contradictory to the fact that you can do other things right away. It doesn't diminish your ability to micro or move around the map.

It made for extremely frustrating and jarring moments for players, and it gave absolutely no benefit in return. It was a pure "realism" design element that actively made gameplay worse. It never should have been there in the first place.
It gave the benefit of timing and when a unit could be used on the battlefield.
23 Apr 2016, 15:44 PM
#76
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 15:40 PMVonIvan
Alright I am going to make this very clear, changing the spawn system is a HORRIBLE idea, for obvious reasons that some people in this thread who haven't played the game for years just don't see. :foreveralone:
Reason 1: Changing the spawn would cause horrible imbalance for unit timing when for example Brits and USF have a specific base structure for their factions.
Reason 2: This whole argument for "more competitive play due to spawn positioning being defensive or aggressive now" is ridiculous considering 90% of the time unless you're unable to defend your tier building nothing will destroy it until the late game. It wont add to anything strategically to be honest other than the timing of your units coming out of your base or where you'd like to move map wise, which doesn't allow for more tactical play like some would think, unless you're in VCoH.
Reason 3: Base structures were meant to be kept INSIDE of your base, not on the outskirts unless you wanted slow reinforce times while moving onto the battlefield. It's a unique CoH2 experience putting your base structures in an assorted order that would allow for reinforcing while moving towards the front.
Reason 4: Having units spawn onto the battlefield instead of from a base structure allowed for more fluent gameplay overall for the timing of when units hit the field and when someone could anticipate an armored car or mg for example, with these changes maxim spam and sniper domination early game will become a serious issue off the bat, especially considering the other proposed changes to be implemented.


23 Apr 2016, 15:47 PM
#77
avatar of vietnamabc

Posts: 1061

So M20 planting mines next to building will be the new meta? Or Vickers camping building?
23 Apr 2016, 16:07 PM
#78
avatar of CavFra

Posts: 52

Changing Spawn positions to base building is useless and pointless, and it destroys the flow of a match in CoH 2.

Want an example to make myself more clear? Crossing in the woods in 1v1s or La(o)ngreskaya. Just imagine being USF and going for an aggressive left side early game plan. Oh no wait you can't anymore because your Base building is now pinned to one side of the map allowing your opponent to dictate the flow of the game, specially if he is Ostheer. Rip your game plans rip your aggressive opening, giving Ostheer (hell even OKW) the possibility to play passively the first minutes gives them a huge theoretical advantage.

PS: Nobody cares if some diehard CoH 1 players will be happy about the changes, there are many more CoH 2 players that would rather not have this totally useless old mechanic to be reimplemented. :)
(both noobs like me and top players like VonIvan, just to mention a name)
23 Apr 2016, 16:50 PM
#79
avatar of Losttruppen

Posts: 62

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2016, 08:00 AMInverse

This line of reasoning ignores the fact that the current system is a terrible design that is frustrating for all players because units are in some cases not selectable immediately based on map and starting position and some unit abilities are not available for arbitrary periods of time until units manage to walk onto the map proper. Balance and strategic impact take a back seat to poor design here. Arguing against a fundamental design improvement because it might cause a temporary imbalance is extremely short-sighted. Balance is easily tweaked. This change is a net quality-of-life improvement for every single player from a design perspective, which means the game will improve in the long term even if you have to endure a relatively short period of imbalance. And keep in mind that until the change is actually implemented it's impossible to say what balance impact, if any, it will actually have.


Pretty simple solution to this without changing a functional aspect of this game that has been here since release. Either make units controllable immediately or have them spawn directly on the map edge. No need to implement unnecessary, unwanted changes for the sake of your nostalgia or "skillful" building placement. And please stop speaking for a group of people you don't represent, the only ones arguing for this are 1v1 players and vCoH vets who don't play this game.
23 Apr 2016, 17:12 PM
#80
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1

This change might've been appropriate in 2013.

It's years after the fact and USF and UKF have no base building, OKW essentially has Opposing Fronts Trucks, and this wouldn't affect vehicles or (maybe?) AT guns. Riflemen, Volks, and Tommies all spawn from T0, along with MG42s and conscripts.

So effectively only Penal Battalions and Grenadiers would notice a change. (And I guess maxims and snipers.)

Also, since I feel this is a component of this decision: M8 base rushing and laying a mine was a component of vCoH that does not exist in CoH2, and this change could not introduce those dynamics.

I love the notion with the beta preview patch that we're trying out and testing all sorts of things. This included is a worthy change to test, although one that I feel is just way too little, far too late.

Also, +1 to Von Ivan.

Also, units spawning and being unable to given commands is frustrating, but what can be done on maps is have the spawn points moved up a bit, and/or the interactive zones set to a different value so that they can be issued orders when they enter. That would probably be more tedious a change as it would require editing maps, but it'd address the actual issue directly.
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