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russian armor

Improving the T-34 Ram

After reading the the post, which change would you like applied?
Option Distribution Votes
31%
19%
11%
8%
31%
Total votes: 36
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
6 Apr 2016, 12:37 PM
#1
avatar of Svanh

Posts: 181

The T-34's Ram ability has a number of effects:

Penetration?ResultChance
YesDamaged Engine90%
YesDestroyed Engine5%
YesImmobilised3%
YesMain Gun Destroyed1%
NoCrew Shock100%


Since the exact critical depends heavily on whether or not Ram penetrates, here's how Ram works against some common targets:

Vehicle (Front/Rear)Damaged EngineDestroyed EngineImmobilisedMain Gun DestroyedCrew Shock
Panzer IV (180/90)80%/90%4.44%/5%2.67%/3%0.89%/1%11.11%/0%
Vet 2/OKW Panzer IV (234/(80/117))61.54%/90%3.42%/5%2.05%/3%0.68%/1%31.62%/0%
Panther (320/110)45%/90%2.5%/5%1.5%/3%0.5%/1%50%/0%
King Tiger (375/225)38.4%/64%2.13%/3.56%1.28%/2.13%0.43%/0.71%57.33%/28.89%


Please note that Ram always destroys the T-34's main gun, immobilises it and causes a temporary "engine overheat" critical if no vehicle is hit.

Currently Ram has a fair amount of RNG involved in its use and doesn't work well as either a last-resort or a support ability. I have a few ways to rework it:

The First Option:

- Ram no longer destroys the T-34's main gun, immobilises the T-34 or causes the "engine overheat" critical
- Ram now gives the T-34 Crew Shock
- Ram gives the target Crew shock on penetration and half-duration Crew Shock on deflection

I like this option because it makes Ram into more of a supportive ability. You're still possibly sacrificing a T-34 if your target has support but it's not a guaranteed loss and Ram isn't as all-or-nothing.

The Second Option:

- Ram no longer immobilises the T-34 or causes the "engine overheat" critical
- Ram now gives the T-34 Crew Shock
- Ram gives the target Crew shock on penetration and half-duration Crew Shock on deflection

This option ensures that Ram isn't used unless you can secure the kill with another unit but also ensures that the T-34 is unlikely to play a part after it has Rammed.

The Third Option:

- Ram no longer destroys the T-34's main gun or immobilises the T-34
- Ram now gives the T-34 Crew Shock

This option has the advantage of changing Ram the least while still providing substantial benefits over its current state.

Which change do you prefer?
6 Apr 2016, 12:42 PM
#2
avatar of l4hti

Posts: 476

The fourth option: make t34 viable and remove this silly ability
6 Apr 2016, 12:50 PM
#3
avatar of PanzerCommander

Posts: 38

Ram? No, no, no, no, no. Too many Tigers lost because T-34 allahu akbar-ed into them. I'd be all for not buffing Ram and buffing the tank.
6 Apr 2016, 12:57 PM
#4
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

I alwasy wondered why T34 gets overheat for short top speed rush while Blitzkrieg does not? :foreveralone:

I'd like to see ram useful. Currently it's just an option when you know you gonna lose a tank.

I see this in 2 ways.
First of all, remove penetration on ram.

1. Keep it like it is (plus no penetration) and incrase damage to 320 or 400? In other words, make it works like a teller mine.
2. No longer causes main gun for T34, no penetration needed, always inflicts critical, like X% for engine damane, X% for heavy damage, x% for main gun etc. No matter if it is Pz4 or KT, % should be the same.
aaa
6 Apr 2016, 12:57 PM
#5
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486

Maybe make ram ai. Surely needs a big buff of any kind. Fun ability but useless vs anything.

Maybe ram as a vet1-2 ability. But it must be a lot more powerful. Either more damage to target or no damage to t34 if dmg to target is the same as now.
6 Apr 2016, 13:14 PM
#6
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2016, 12:37 PMSvanh
Currently Ram has a fair amount of RNG involved in its use and doesn't work well as either a last-resort or a support ability.


It works well as a last-resort ability, because, first, it boosts speed significantly and allows to close on speedy tanks (blitzing panther etc) to land a shot before ramming it, and, second, have potential to do damage.

However, it is very badly designed and out of place ability, which, if buffed, would degradate armor play to all-in RNG ram rushes again, and therefore, should be removed.

6 Apr 2016, 13:38 PM
#7
avatar of Hans G. Schultz

Posts: 875 | Subs: 2

Ram is fine.
/thread
6 Apr 2016, 13:51 PM
#8
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

I think Ram pales in comparison to the AEC or Stuart abilities. You're spending a tank, not just muni.

I would like to see Ram cause the T-34 to take significantly extra damage or a high chance of engine destroy if hitwhile it is charging but destroy the enemy gun again all the time and a short ~5 second crew shock, with the T-34 still losing its gun and being immobilized.

This would make it really good against a single tank going up against multiple Soviet tanks, but extremely weak against a Tank backed up by other support.

6 Apr 2016, 13:51 PM
#9
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

Ram is by no means fine, hell it doesn't even kill a kubal. We have been down this road before and while I think the ram idea is a cool one I think it needs slightly buffed. It destroys your tank and does very little damage to target. This throw away ability means there is very little tactical use and as such should be buffed to give you more options.

Suggestion is to break a units gun, crew shock, destroy t-34 engine. This means its perfect to help soviets counter heavy German late game units such as jagtiger and elephant which soviets as a whole have a hard time dealing with due to su-85 being garbage.


Disclaimer: OFC this would need to be tested and see if a player uses this in every engagement but the t-34 is already hardly used as a MBT.


Edit: If none of that works, buff t-34s main gun accuracy, increase front armor slightly to match that of other Med tanks.
6 Apr 2016, 14:04 PM
#10
avatar of MATRAKA14

Posts: 118

Ram is not fine.
T34 is not fine.
A lot of soviet units are not fine
Soviet commanders are not fine.
Soviet vet abilities are not fine.
6 Apr 2016, 14:36 PM
#11
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

Ram is fine. It's not an ability that you should be building tactics around, but rather an ability that you use as a last ditch hail mary attempt to take out an enemy vehicle. Which makes a lot of sense considering that ramming an enemy tank with your tank is only something that a tank crew would do then they are left with no other options.
6 Apr 2016, 14:50 PM
#12
avatar of MATRAKA14

Posts: 118

Ram is fine. It's not an ability that you should be building tactics around, but rather an ability that you use as a last ditch hail mary attempt to take out an enemy vehicle. Which makes a lot of sense considering that ramming an enemy tank with your tank is only something that a tank crew would do then they are left with no other options.


Yes but at least it should be more dynamic, ramming a kubel or a tiger is not the same, hitting a tank from the front or the rear is not the same.
6 Apr 2016, 14:58 PM
#13
avatar of TAKTCOM

Posts: 275 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2015, 05:23 AMTAKTCOM

Normal ram will work like:
- against wheel vehicle and half-track, T-34 take minimum damage, no crits, target destroyed;
- against light tanks and TD, T-34 take minimum damage, light engine damage, target tank heavily damaged and stuned;
- against medium tanks and TD, T-34 take average damage, stuned + random crits, same for target tank;
- against heavy tanks and TD (including Panther), T-34 take heavily damage, stuned + random crits, target tank low damaged, stuned and light engine damage.
And yes, remove engine overheating.
6 Apr 2016, 16:14 PM
#14
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

Ram is fine. It's not an ability that you should be building tactics around, but rather an ability that you use as a last ditch hail mary attempt to take out an enemy vehicle. Which makes a lot of sense considering that ramming an enemy tank with your tank is only something that a tank crew would do then they are left with no other options.


This last ditch hail mary ability is shittier than the 25 second AEC vet 1 stun or the stuart chain stun/engine destroy wombocombo. That'd be the main reason I'd like it buffed.
6 Apr 2016, 16:28 PM
#15
avatar of Hans G. Schultz

Posts: 875 | Subs: 2



Yes but at least it should be more dynamic, ramming a kubel or a tiger is not the same, hitting a tank from the front or the rear is not the same.

So, I guess your saying they're fine, it's just that the T-34 should run over the kubel?
6 Apr 2016, 16:32 PM
#16
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1


So, I guess your saying they're fine, it's just that the T-34 should run over the kubel?

"FUCK YOUR SALVAGE SHIT"
6 Apr 2016, 17:53 PM
#17
avatar of MATRAKA14

Posts: 118


So, I guess your saying they're fine, it's just that the T-34 should run over the kubel?


Oh!, im happy if the t34, a 26-40 tone tank, stops getting his engine and gun destroyed by ramming a 715-1160 kg cheap vehicle or similar. I don't know sounds fair to me.
6 Apr 2016, 18:03 PM
#18
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

If ram shocked both the T34 and the target and dealt a small amount of damage to the T34, that might not be too crazy, especially if it disabled the T34 for a longer time/the ram had a long cooldown afterward.
6 Apr 2016, 18:19 PM
#19
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Ram is fine. It's not an ability that you should be building tactics around, but rather an ability that you use as a last ditch hail mary attempt to take out an enemy vehicle. Which makes a lot of sense considering that ramming an enemy tank with your tank is only something that a tank crew would do then they are left with no other options.


It's not that is not use-able, rather than it is really badly design. A remanent of the "Old gods, of every plane crash tells a story" era.

Having a 1/100 or 1/33 chance for heavy crits on a 1 or 2 dice throw per match is not good at all.


IMO:
Option 1:
-Guaranteed stun for both tanks. Shorter if no penetration.

-Completely remove heavy engine damage, immobilize and main gun destroy from possible crits on full health tanks.
-If tanks is below 25% health or with engine damage, heavy engine damage/main gun destroy/immobilize are possible.
From front 75/25 for heavy engine damage/main gun destroy . From rear, 75/25 for HED/immobilize.

-T34s will still get engine overheat if they don't connect with any target.
-Hitting a target will always proc engine damage on T34.
-On hit, if T34 is above 50% HP, chance to get 1 of either heavy engine damage, immobilize, main gun destroy, turret jammed (same as Aimed shot).
If below 50% HP, heavy engine damage procs, plus 2 of any of the previous crits (immobilize, main gun destroyed, turret jam).

Option 2:
Mirage's mod

Now causes stun on both vehicles on hit to be less all in. Instead the ability acts more like a tank-guided Target Weakpoint. Increased recharge time as the T-34 no longer cripples itself and to prevent chain rams.

-Changed Ram to now deal vehicle stun critical on penetration. This stun is shorter if it deflects at 2.5 seconds versus 5. T-34 is always stunned at the maximum time of five seconds.
-Engine overheat on the T-34 time reduced from 30 seconds to 12.
-Ram recharge from 12 seconds to 30.

6 Apr 2016, 19:22 PM
#20
avatar of Gustybreeze
Patrion 39

Posts: 64

Was ram used in ESL at all?
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