Login

russian armor

So penal is underpowered? or others are overpowered?

So penal is underpowered? or others are overpowered?
Option Distribution Votes
6%
77%
17%
Total votes: 65
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
1 Apr 2016, 15:27 PM
#1
avatar of bingo12345

Posts: 304

So penal is underpowered? or the others are overpowered?
is there power gap between penal battalion and the others such as rifleman, tommy,gren or volk?

what's your thought?
1 Apr 2016, 15:30 PM
#2
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

Penals are not underpowered considering they are just 270mp. However, because they are just 270mp, they have no role in the Soviet army not already filled by conscripts and flamer Engineers.
1 Apr 2016, 16:10 PM
#3
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

I'm inclined to agree with Aerohank - problem is they have a similar damage profile to Cons and lack the same utility you get with Cons or a Flamer Engineer (who can also Mine, Repair, etc.) Literally the only major difference is they have better on the move damage due to their SVTs being semi-auto so they are a better flanker (but if you want that then you might as well get PPSH Cons or Shocks). They are decent but don't excel at anything done better by other units.

Not knowing the stats offhand I'd say they'd be better off if they had better Medium range damage to make like more akin to a poor mans Rifleman with worse accuracy.
1 Apr 2016, 16:16 PM
#4
avatar of luvnest
Strategist Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1094 | Subs: 20

you forgot the option "penals are overpowered"

What Aerohank said.
1 Apr 2016, 16:19 PM
#5
avatar of Angrade (Ægion)
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 766 | Subs: 2

Here is my problem. People have been asking for a recviced acc. buff in vet. This would make them very similar to the old rifle company. I was not a fan of that type of strong infantry, since it nulls your opponents cover bonus as your standard infantry force.

Here is my food for thought. Why not switch the places of guards and penals. Make the requested buff penals as a doctrine unit and make guards at the t1 and are available once you build the t2 or t3. Have available upgrades of 2 ptrs, 2 dps, or an assualt package of 3 semi-autos and 3 ppsh.
1 Apr 2016, 16:33 PM
#6
avatar of bingo12345

Posts: 304

Here is my problem. People have been asking for a recviced acc. buff in vet. This would make them very similar to the old rifle company. I was not a fan of that type of strong infantry, since it nulls your opponents cover bonus as your standard infantry force.

Here is my food for thought. Why not switch the places of guards and penals. Make the requested buff penals as a doctrine unit and make guards at the t1 and are available once you build the t2 or t3. Have available upgrades of 2 ptrs, 2 dps, or an assualt package of 3 semi-autos and 3 ppsh.


switching the places of guards and penals is interesting. and small buff to penal. 1 cp.
1 Apr 2016, 16:41 PM
#7
1 Apr 2016, 17:24 PM
#8
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Give them finally some veterancy rec. acc. bonus and they will be fine.
1 Apr 2016, 17:48 PM
#9
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Here is my problem. People have been asking for a recviced acc. buff in vet. This would make them very similar to the old rifle company. I was not a fan of that type of strong infantry, since it nulls your opponents cover bonus as your standard infantry force.

Here is my food for thought. Why not switch the places of guards and penals. Make the requested buff penals as a doctrine unit and make guards at the t1 and are available once you build the t2 or t3. Have available upgrades of 2 ptrs, 2 dps, or an assualt package of 3 semi-autos and 3 ppsh.


Could agree on this one
1 Apr 2016, 18:16 PM
#10
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

In that case I'll repost this:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616064538

That's a simple tuning pack I put together to test changes to Soviet T1. Play the AI or grab a friend and try out some T1 modified Guards action.

Currently:

Guards are in T1. They come without PTRS.
PTRS upgrade added for Guards: a clone of conscripts upgrade. This upgrade is only available if a commander that normally would call in guards is chosen, keeping PTRS behind doctrine.)
Penals replace Guards in commanders, at 0 CP. (Guard ability changed to 0 CP, and made to call in Penal Battalions.)

Adjustments to balance:

Guard entity cost/time from 55mp/5.5 sec to 50mp/5 sec.
Guard Mosin nagant moving accuracy modifier from 0.75 to 0.6
Guard Mosin nagant far accuracy from 0.526 to 0.398 (4/6ths of grenadiers Kar98k.)
Guards DP-28 upgrade requires either T2 OR T3.
Guards grenades use requires both molotovs and at nades to be researched from HQ.
Penals SVT mid range accuracy from 0.46 to .555 (5/6th rifle's M1 Garand)
Penals SVT moving accuracy from 0.5 to 0.6
Dispatch recharge time fpr Penals set to 26 (from 36 for Guards; time to build Penals from T1 is 27 seconds.)


I find that Penal Battalions work well in a doctrinal sense. They weren't exactly the backbone of the Soviet Army to begin with, and in CoH2 they don't actually function as such either.

(Please note I use this mod to test things randomly, and I think the Panzergrenadiers STGs might be modified to use short burst fires at long range, not sure if I uploaded that build to the workshop...)


Sure swapping Penals and Guards would require some commander redesign, but honestly, I'd rather commanders need balancing over stock units and core faction teching. But nonetheless by swapping Penals for Guards, any doctrine that has Guards becomes a doctrine that gives PTRS for the mainline soviet infantry. Without a Guards Doctrine commander, there are no PTRS for them, which I think alone smooths over a lot of commander balance issues.
1 Apr 2016, 22:06 PM
#11
avatar of squippy

Posts: 484

I agree with Aerohank, that Penals are fine for their cost. They add something to your composition, namely cost-effective anti-garrison infantry.

I suspect that if Penals were available in another tech structure, they would be seen more often. As it stands, you only go T1 if you intend to go sniper or clown car; going T1 specifically for Penals simply is not worth it. And if you are going sniper or clown car, that is where you will sink your MP.

If Penals were moved to T2 or T3, which most Soviet players in most games are going to build anyway, then they will be available to more players in more games. Not as "elite" infantry, but as a tool for solving specific problems. If you are on a map with a lot of buildings, or facing off against many MG's, or just want to replace a squad that was wiped, Penals will be there and available to use.

Penals don't need a buff, and Soviets as a whole don't need yet more elite infantry. They just need to be available as as option in more games than they are at present. The down side to this is that T1 would be be even less relevant outside of specific strats. In CoH1, Barracks was always a good option because you needed it to upgrade your basic line infantry, and perhaps the nearest direct equivalent would be to move Molotovs and AT nades to T1. Then going T1 would be more attractive, and Penals would be more available as a consequence. But as things stand, that would be a sizable nerf to Soviets.
2 Apr 2016, 02:34 AM
#12
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Moving molitovs and at nades to t1 would just add another 10fuel to a pair of alreay overpriced sidegrades
2 Apr 2016, 03:12 AM
#13
avatar of stalinqtxoxo420mlg

Posts: 54

Moving molitovs and at nades to t1 would just add another 10fuel to a pair of alreay overpriced sidegrades


also it would encourage even more mass maxim strategies that apparently everyone hates

penals are fine for where they are in the early game but they have absolutely zero scaling and transition to become worthless manpower sinks.
2 Apr 2016, 03:34 AM
#14
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



also it would encourage even more mass maxim strategies that apparently everyone hates

penals are fine for where they are in the early game but they have absolutely zero scaling and transition to become worthless manpower sinks.

Something as simple as an lmg bundle would go so far I think, as ive been playing with them lately (since vet fix) to try and get a feel for what they need and a buddy dropped me 2 Vickers and they were a serious threat. Behind sandbags they were winning vs lmg obers (vet 3 penals vs vet 0 obers)
The lmg could unlock at tier 3 or 4

But I personally REALLY like the swap with guards idea, having a real grenade, tried and tested infantry, light AT... It would REALLY open up some new strats for the soviet and allow for the nerf the maxim needs
4 Apr 2016, 10:53 AM
#15
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

In that case I'll repost this:


Sure swapping Penals and Guards would require some commander redesign, but honestly, I'd rather commanders need balancing over stock units and core faction teching. But nonetheless by swapping Penals for Guards, any doctrine that has Guards becomes a doctrine that gives PTRS for the mainline soviet infantry. Without a Guards Doctrine commander, there are no PTRS for them, which I think alone smooths over a lot of commander balance issues.


guards are mostly fine. Seriously don't risk breaking two units in an attempt to fix one units. In additonal, switching penals and guards is just going to make things awkward for the guard motor and guard rifle tactic.

penals are not fine. Going t1 basically mean trying to do an inferior US rifle spam. Just increase the awful mid and long range dps on the penal.
4 Apr 2016, 11:33 AM
#16
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1389 | Subs: 1

The main problem of Penals Squad is tier, where you order them. This tier give you only specific units for specific situations and can be skiped without any losses for USSR player.
Soviet sniper in one building with M3 and Penals. All of this units can't be called as mainline. You don't have support weapon. If you go T1 after T2, you can't use M3 (enemy already have many grenadiers, volksgrenadiers and maybe PaKs 40, Raketenwerfers and SdKfz 222). Also you delay your T-70 on 25 fuel (T1 cost + M3 cost). Penals can be replaced by conscripts, engineers and doctrine elite infantry. As a result, you build T1 only for sniper.
That's why i think T1 should be removed, M3 moved to HQ, Sniper to T2, Penals can be removed or added to doctrines (As example - Rapid Conscription).
4 Apr 2016, 15:52 PM
#17
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742



guards are mostly fine. Seriously don't risk breaking two units in an attempt to fix one units. In additonal, switching penals and guards is just going to make things awkward for the guard motor and guard rifle tactic.

penals are not fine. Going t1 basically mean trying to do an inferior US rifle spam. Just increase the awful mid and long range dps on the penal.


It gives Soviet T1 an upgrade pathway that allows for a unit that scales into late game. It also doesn't make things as awkward as you might think considering most people go Guards for the PTRS, not for DP-28s or for a more MP bleeding infantry unit. As long as the Guards doctrines keep the PTRS available, those commanders stay in a good spot.

My ultimate point is that there's 2 routes: Penals become defacto guards, or penals become stronger and remain in a useless tier, changing little to nothing. Strategically Soviet T1 is crippling. Simply buffing Penals in one dimension won't change that. It makes less it less bad, but not yet good.

I mean really, the Guard/Shock/Nothing choice for Soviets has always made things awkward for Soviets to tech AND field a competent army. Penals have to get something like a grenade, a weapon upgrade that isn't a flamethower, and/or more durability with vet to make any changes worthwhile. As it stands Penals don't bring anything to the Soviet arsenal other than Satchel charges, which have been pretty much nerfed to being used only to kill Ostheer bunkers.
4 Apr 2016, 16:35 PM
#18
avatar of Glokta

Posts: 61



I mean really, the Guard/Shock/Nothing choice for Soviets has always made things awkward for Soviets to tech AND field a competent army. Penals have to get something like a grenade, a weapon upgrade that isn't a flamethower, and/or more durability with vet to make any changes worthwhile. As it stands Penals don't bring anything to the Soviet arsenal other than Satchel charges, which have been pretty much nerfed to being used only to kill Ostheer bunkers.


I think the issues compounded by the poor state of Soviet T4, while less of an issue 1v1 the need to fix both mainline infantry through Guards/Shocks and to get something vaguely useful late game is alot of pressure on docs.
4 Apr 2016, 16:46 PM
#19
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

You have to admit though, SU-85 trollcannon is sorely underused.

That vet 2. Dat vet 3 :megusta:
4 Apr 2016, 17:53 PM
#20
avatar of Glokta

Posts: 61

2 second rof? 60 range? completely balanced nothing to see here move along.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Livestreams

unknown 28
Russian Federation 75
Germany 3

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

477 users are online: 1 member and 476 guests
NorthWeapon
0 post in the last 24h
16 posts in the last week
133 posts in the last month
Registered members: 45019
Welcome our newest member, dsers
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM