Let's talk about ostheer.

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There is a trending video where a vet 3 2x bar rifleman squad ties against 2 vet 0 grenadiers.

I guess that's a case where 280mp = 2x 240mp. I'm not saying its OP or UP. Just found a "where in the world" answer for you of a similar scenario.

But... that's Vet3 vs Vet0. Isn't that the whole point about this game? Getting rewarded for unit preservation?

I'm sure if we tried other units we might find something similar. Vet3/5 paras/rangers/obers/fall/jli/shocks vs vet0 something else. So I fail to comprehend the relevance but thanks for sharing.

Also, if you don't mind, please link the video. I would like to see as well.

And why in the world would 280mp x 2 lose to 340mp x 1? Where in the world?

I did not say they should lose I said PG lost 4 models and Riflemen 1...

Comparison and video like this are a bit pointless.

Pg are a T2 with a tech/building cost while riflemen are T0...

I have explained what the problems that PGs have imo in my previous post...if you to comment on something comment on that pls...

I did not say they should lose I said PG lost 4 models and Riflemen 1...

Comparison and video like this are a bit pointless.

Pg are a T2 with a tech/building cost while riflemen are T0...

I have explained what the problems that PGs have imo in my previous post...if you to comment on something comment on that pls...

That's like saying why don't my Obers T4 rape every other infantry in the game? They are T4 after all. Why doesn't my T4 T34-76 beat P4? It's T4 vs T3?

Just because a unit is in a different tier does NOT justify that it should win 1 vs 2 units.

That's like saying why don't my Obers T4 rape every other infantry in the game? They are T4 after all. Why doesn't my T4 T34-76 beat P4? It's T4 vs T3?

Just because a unit is in a different tier does NOT justify that it should win 1 vs 2 units.

For the 3 time I never claimed that PG should win 2vs1...stop putting words in my mouth...

It pretty normal that PG can win a medium range vs riflemen with 2 bars. It is the optimal range to use PG, and does not mean much.

Equally normal is the the fact that a riflemen with 1 LMG will probably win a PG if both in cover and at far distance.

The issue with PG imo, have been posted.

That's like saying why don't my Obers T4 rape every other infantry in the game? They are T4 after all. Why doesn't my T4 T34-76 beat P4? It's T4 vs T3?

Just because a unit is in a different tier does NOT justify that it should win 1 vs 2 units.

Look cost to tier 4 of Soviet
Look cost tier 3 ost
Look carefully you might find some similarity
(Why my brumbar doesn't insta kill inf )

For the 3 time I never claimed that PG should win 2vs1...stop putting words in my mouth...

It pretty normal that PG can win a medium range vs riflemen with 2 bars. It is the optimal range to use PG, and does not mean much.

Equally normal is the the fact that a riflemen with 1 LMG will probably win a PG if both in cover and at far distance.

The issue with PG imo, have been posted.

If you look from the beginning of the thread, the argument happened when OP disagrees that a PG could beat 2xbar riflemen.
Other people disagree.
You come in with "i tested 2 riflemen vs 1 pg".
That's where this all went downhill. Back on topic to OP's post that riflemen beat PG outright is not true. That's all I have to say.

Why does fighting in optimal range not mean much? Shocktroopers are useless until close range. LMG grens are most effective at long range.

Look cost to tier 4 of Soviet
Look cost tier 3 ost
Look carefully you might find some similarity
(Why my brumbar doesn't insta kill inf )

I don't have the numbers for the upgrades with me but my point is different units have different strengths and weaknesses. It's not just a numbers game.

How about su85 vs jagdIV? i think whoever gets off the first shot generally wins the engagement at vet0. I'm sure OKW jagd IV costs more than su85.

In my opinion pg just need better vet at least on par with rifle man

...
Why does fighting in optimal range not mean much? Shocktroopers are useless until close range. LMG grens are most effective at long range.

Exactly, you said it your self when comparing 2 units distance will give you different result so it does not really mean much...

In the same test:
Pg vs Dual bar rifles, at far range riflemen would probably win...

.....

Also, if you don't mind, please link the video. I would like to see as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PPa9JKcIw0

Problem that people don't understand that pgrens have to close range, where grens do not. So they close to medium and get instant focused, which makes them bleed fast.

Pgrens are best used as flanking/ambushing unit, not as frontal charging unit.

If they just made PzIV same as OKW PzIV all problems would be done for wehrmacht

They're rather expensive to be just used as a flanking/ambushing unit.

While I agree their role is not as a frontal charging unit like shocks, still their squishability makes them too expensive. They can put out high damage but, as OP stated, they have to spend a long time off the battlefield.

That's like saying why don't my Obers T4 rape every other infantry in the game? They are T4 after all. Why doesn't my T4 T34-76 beat P4? It's T4 vs T3?

Just because a unit is in a different tier does NOT justify that it should win 1 vs 2 units.

You wouldn't expect 1 T34 to beat 2x Ostheer 222?

You wouldn't expect 1 T34 to beat 2x Ostheer 222?

A more reasonable comparison would be a T70 vs 2 222

You wouldn't expect 1 T34 to beat 2x Ostheer 222?

Thanks for exaggerating the point. My comparisons were infantry vs infantry. Med tank vs Med tank. Your comparison is Med tank vs light vehicle.

Grens are fine. They might not be the strongest in terms of raw power but they still have the best snare, an excellent grenade (that is basically free to unlock) and the best-value weapon upgrade. They are prone to wipes from HE weapons and a 5th model would help overcome that, but sadly I think the rebalancing would just be too complicated at this stage.

As for PGrens it's a bit more complicated. They still excel in the AT role, especially when used against isolated TDs. Against SU and UKF infantry, they are fine. Against riflemen, they struggle because of the small difference between the two units' optimum ranges. They don't really work as an assault unit against emplacement-heavy UKF play either due to their squishiness and the ability of brace to nullify any surprise attacks.

Part of the problem with PGrens is people trying to use them as point-blank assault troops, which they are not. They aren't an all-round combat unit either. They're a situational unit that performs certain roles very well and others somewhat well. Once you accept that, the issue doesn't seem too great - no faction will build every available unit in every game.

That said PGrens would benefit from a change to their vet1, either to a passive regen or the ability to use medkits on themselves out of combat. The cost of their nade could come down a little, as could the cost/time of their reinforcement.

As for the rest of Ostheer, I believe their problems come down to 3 things:

1: Inflexible doctrines - Ostheer doctrines have some great abilities but they just add to what's already there. They don't offer much of a means to adapt to the game as it develops. Some offer alternate builds (e.g. AssGrens, Osttruppen) but they just end up locking you into a certain build.

2: Lack of aggressive options for tackling UKF emplacements - Flamepios, Pgrens, AssGrens or flame HT are all squishy and easily countered by Bofors/Brace, while long-range mortar/Pak attacks are defeated by mortar pit/Bofors barrage. Sure 2 x PzWerfers will grind down sim city, but it makes for a boring game.

3: Ineffectiveness of MG42 against rifle blobs - Pretty simple. Doesn't suppress quickly enough, too easily countered by smoke grenades.

Grens are fine. They might not be the strongest in terms of raw power but they still have the best snare, an excellent grenade (that is basically free to unlock) and the best-value weapon upgrade. They are prone to wipes from HE weapons and a 5th model would help overcome that, but sadly I think the rebalancing would just be too complicated at this stage.

They should go for broke and rebalance all exploding things around the expectation that only the particularly expensive munition expeditures will one-shot full health infantry squads (whose behaviour is also remade so they will not ever crowd around a tiny bit of cover [like a crater] so that anything with even a tiny bit of AoE will one-shot them).

...I can dream.

They should go for broke and rebalance all exploding things around the expectation that only the particularly expensive munition expeditures will one-shot full health infantry squads (whose behaviour is also remade so they will not ever crowd around a tiny bit of cover [like a crater] so that anything with even a tiny bit of AoE will one-shot them).

...I can dream.

Eh, opinions seem to go in circles around here. If you undo the clumping changes you'll go back to the days where 1 guy sticking out from cover got the whole squad suppressed. If you reduce the effectiveness of HE weapons against dense infantry formations we'll see more blobs. The reason HE was buffed in the first place was because of silly decisions to give abilities like rifle grenades and smoke to mainline infantry, thus giving them the ability to defeat MGs in frontal attacks.

Thanks for exaggerating the point. My comparisons were infantry vs infantry. Med tank vs Med tank. Your comparison is Med tank vs light vehicle.

My comparison is higher tier vs lower tier.


Elchino made a good point.

1 T70 will beat 2x 222. Equal skill equal micro. And there's nothing wrong with that.


The only was I can agree with you is this: T34-76 sucks and shouldn't suck so hard. It should perform better.

Apart from that my view is higher tier = superior type-for-type.

Most of the problems read here is that people think that 1 unit of yours should win against 2 of theirs...

Eh, opinions seem to go in circles around here. If you undo the clumping changes you'll go back to the days where 1 guy sticking out from cover got the whole squad suppressed. If you reduce the effectiveness of HE weapons against dense infantry formations we'll see more blobs. The reason HE was buffed in the first place was because of silly decisions to give abilities like rifle grenades and smoke to mainline infantry, thus giving them the ability to defeat MGs in frontal attacks.

Easily worth it. I'd rather my squads be unexpectedly suppressed instead of unexpectedly mush.

It might be possible to make the cover count as a squad modifier instead of an entity modifier (like when Osttruppen clearly are shown to have their accuracy bonus while most of them are in cover instead of all of them) in addition to fix up that other problem instead, but that'd probably also require reprogramming so the defensive bonuses only work when not flanked.

Most of the problems read here is that people think that 1 unit of yours should win against 2 of theirs...

I'm just saying, it's bullshit that my two Combat Engineers automatically lose to one King Tiger. 2 > 1, it's fucking kindergarden math, Relic.