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russian armor

Gren 42 and G43 combo

14 Jan 2016, 14:01 PM
#41
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

I don't see a need for this.

Both the lmg42 and G43s are already fairly cheap for what you get compared to allies weapon upgrades.

Then there is also the more important fact that you are not supposed to out-infantry spam your opponent with Ostheer. Ostheer has amazing combined arms; use this to overcome your enemies rather than trying to rely on grenspam.
14 Jan 2016, 14:26 PM
#42
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2062 | Subs: 1

omg no
14 Jan 2016, 14:35 PM
#43
avatar of Shell_yeah

Posts: 258

it will break balance vs soviets
14 Jan 2016, 14:55 PM
#44
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

this would mean that conscripts get raped even more
14 Jan 2016, 14:56 PM
#45
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2229 | Subs: 1

i thought this title was about an actual strategy, discussion and experience


however it's just another "i want my faction to be buffed" demand
14 Jan 2016, 16:23 PM
#46
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

You forget the panzergrenadier , which are amazing stock AI units. And when they reach vet2 , they become monsters. panzergrenadiers are actually even better than obers in a way


I like PGrens too, but lets be real here. STG Obers shit all over STG PGrens, and dat suppression veterancy:hansGASM:

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2016, 13:00 PMRiCE
While i hate the close-mid range G43 as an upgrade (especially on panzerfusiliers)


What's wrong with G43s on Panzerfusiliers? They are a buff to DPS at every range.
14 Jan 2016, 23:05 PM
#47
avatar of Jackas4life
Benefactor 115

Posts: 486 | Subs: 1

i thought this title was about an actual strategy, discussion and experience


however it's just another "i want my faction to be buffed" demand


I wasn't asking for a buff, I was wounder what everyone would think of it, and oh please actual strategy on .org forums?
14 Jan 2016, 23:14 PM
#48
avatar of Sierra

Posts: 432

I'd rather nerf terminator rifles than buff grens to terminator level. Their DPS with LMG42 and G43 is going to be insane, and if your infantry isn't rifles you might have a tough time (conscript lives matter too! somewhat.).

Besides, Ostheer is now in a very good spot, I would be leery of any buffs to them. MG42 + upgraded grens still can handle anything short of giant LMG rifleblobs, and the Pwerfer is here for that.


Panzerwerfer comes way late in the game if the blob gets rolling early on.
15 Jan 2016, 04:45 AM
#49
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2016, 23:14 PMSierra


Panzerwerfer comes way late in the game if the blob gets rolling early on.


The blob only starts to be out of control for grens and MGs once they get double LMGs (or BARs at the very least), grenades, and vet 3. Unless you got owned, that happens somewhat late in the game. By this time you should have armor to soften them up, and if the match goes on (or in team games) Pwerfers are here if the blob really hits critical mass.

I personally don't have that many issues facing US blobs, and I mostly play 2v2 where they are much more common. Overlapping fields of fire, relocating MGs out of smoke, defensive PGrens, judicious usage of cover and grens, snipers, and a P4 can all even the playing field well enough. Once the Pwerfer rolls out, let the fireworks begin.

Point is, Rifles overperforming at vet 3 is no excuse to make grenadiers into terminators as well. You would just start an OP infantry arms race that ends with even more blobs smashing into each other, while other infantry (cough conscripts cough) get left in the dirt. Rifle scaling should be nerfed, and the rest of the USA early game buffed/changed accordingly.
15 Jan 2016, 05:22 AM
#50
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1089



It definitely feels like the most solidly designed faction. It has no OP units (save the Pwerfer) and very few mediocre/useless ones (222 could use a slight buff, PGrens a slight cost decrease and Brumbar more accuracy, but nothing major). Its playstyle is clearly defined, but doctrines allow you to go outside the box if you want to.

And they are still very strong. In the right hands, they are easily among the strongest faction in all play modes.


I'd rather bring things up or down to Ostheer levels personally. I think it's almost the best feeling faction at the moment.




I have to agree with you guys. While G43 grens w/ LMG42s would be cool, it definitely would break balance against soviets. Ostheer has a great, linear design with doctrines that can change things up which is good. I think that's better than having factions where your build is determined by your commander (like the okw commanders w/ mid game infantry, but that's been changed thanks to their tech changes). The unfortunate part for Ostheer is that their early game suffers, at least in 1v1s.
15 Jan 2016, 07:14 AM
#51
avatar of IIGuderian

Posts: 128

I like PGrens too, but lets be real here. STG Obers shit all over STG PGrens, and dat suppression veterancy:hansGASM:

yes but pg costs significantly less mp to both reinforce and build .
Hence the
panzergrenadiers are actually even better than obers in a way
15 Jan 2016, 09:06 AM
#52
avatar of RiCE

Posts: 284

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2016, 16:23 PMTobis

What's wrong with G43s on Panzerfusiliers? They are a buff to DPS at every range.


G43 upgrade is barely increase their long range DPS.. it increase mostly close range and mid range.

Panzerfusiliers are long range squad, and i can increase their close and mid range dps with a 90MU G43 upgrade.

280 MP riflemen or IS squad can upgrade with 60 MU weapons and they are better than my 290 mp fusiliers with 90 MU upgrades. Maybe at melee range i can put up a fight, but if there are no tight corners fusiliers will drop 1 or 2 member against LMGs before get in fighting range.

So i think its too expensive for 90 MU on a 290 MP squad. OST version on Grens are better.
15 Jan 2016, 09:09 AM
#53
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17628 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jan 2016, 09:06 AMRiCE


G43 upgrade is barely increase their long range DPS.. it increase mostly close range and mid range.

Panzerfusiliers are long range squad, and i can increase their close and mid range dps with a 90MU G43 upgrade.

No, they are not, which is reflected in their weapon upgrade and long range DPS compared to IS or grens.
They are mid range squad that also excels at flanking team weapons, especially at max vet.

280 MP riflemen or IS squad can upgrade with 60 MU weapons and they are better than my 290 mp fusiliers with 90 MU upgrades. Maybe at melee range i can put up a fight, but if there are no tight corners fusiliers will drop 1 or 2 member against LMGs before get in fighting range.

So i think its too expensive for 90 MU on a 290 MP squad. OST version on Grens are better.

Because fusiliers are NOT long range squad, think of them as assault guards that don't need to stick rifle in opponents troops butts to deal damage.
15 Jan 2016, 16:31 PM
#54
avatar of RiCE

Posts: 284

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jan 2016, 09:09 AMKatitof

No, they are not, which is reflected in their weapon upgrade and long range DPS compared to IS or grens.
They are mid range squad that also excels at flanking team weapons, especially at max vet.


Because fusiliers are NOT long range squad, think of them as assault guards that don't need to stick rifle in opponents troops butts to deal damage.


I always use them as a long range squad, because thats what the in-game unit description said about them. Ofcourse those might be out-dated.

Exactly at half range, a riflemen squad and a fusilier squad is kinda equal. Its 50%-50% chance which will kill the other. In a long range fight fusiliers will win.

Anyway i will be honest, i usually used G43 as a close range weapon to gain maximum damage, and stock fusiliers on max range if enemy soldiers were not upgraded with any weapon. I will test what youve just said, but i think Rifles with LMG will dominate fusiliers with G43 on mid range. And its 280+60 vs 290+90..
15 Jan 2016, 16:54 PM
#55
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jan 2016, 16:31 PMRiCE
I will test what youve just said, but i think Rifles with LMG will dominate fusiliers with G43 on mid range. And its 280+60 vs 290+90..

Pretty sure upgraded PFs should beat Rifles with one BAR at range 20. PFs will have very slightly higher DPS while having a man over Rifles in durability while Rifles will have 0.03 better target size, unless the benefit of having more DPS based in one individual is one I am underestimating and is that much better over PFs' starting to lose more DPS after the 4 man dies. Any closer and the PFs should definitely just wreck the BAR Rifles.
15 Jan 2016, 19:58 PM
#56
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
Good suggestion +1. It was only OP cuz conscripts were bad, and the weapons were better. Both upgrades have been nerfed heavily since then, and cons have been buffed.
15 Jan 2016, 22:41 PM
#57
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

Good suggestion +1. It was only OP cuz conscripts were bad, and the weapons were better. Both upgrades have been nerfed heavily since then, and cons have been buffed.


Uhhh, cons vet 3 was buffed and their probability of instant death to flames was removed. Tell me what else have they been buffed with? They're still weak at vet 0, 1, and 2.

I don't see justification for giving 3 weapons to a 4 man squad while cons get nothing...

I do not think g43s and mg42s were ever nerfed... i could be wrong. I just think you're comparing them to the new factions and feel they're not as strong. If it was only OST and SOV... I don't think you'd be saying that.

Grens used to laugh at dp 28s and guards all day.
15 Jan 2016, 22:53 PM
#58
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned


Uhhh, cons vet 3 was buffed and their probability of instant death to flames was removed. Tell me what else have they been buffed with? They're still weak at vet 0, 1, and 2.

I don't see justification for giving 3 weapons to a 4 man squad while cons get nothing...

I do not think g43s and mg42s were ever nerfed... i could be wrong. I just think you're comparing them to the new factions and feel they're not as strong. If it was only OST and SOV... I don't think you'd be saying that.

Grens used to laugh at dp 28s and guards all day.

How can you remember times when grens would beat guards, but not remember the several nerfs to g43s and lmg42s since they removed the possibility of being able to buy both.

Even with g43s and lmg42 thats still less firepower than western allies when dual equipping. I don't see the issue considering grens are very fragile and have weak veterancy.

Why dont they just unlock conscripts ppsh with t3? And replace ppsh in doctrine with dp28 for like 40 muni. Vet 3 ppsh cons are pretty good because they are so tanky.
15 Jan 2016, 23:04 PM
#59
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468


How can you remember times when grens would beat guards, but not remember the several nerfs to g43s and lmg42s since they removed the possibility of being able to buy both.

Even with g43s and lmg42 thats still less firepower than western allies when dual equipping. I don't see the issue considering grens are very fragile and have weak veterancy.

Why dont they just unlock conscripts ppsh with t3? And replace ppsh in doctrine with dp28 for like 40 muni. Vet 3 ppsh cons are pretty good because they are so tanky.


Grens do not have weak veterancy... not at all. Can you go over what is vet 2 and 3 again? i believe it's increase in accuracy and receive accuracy.

And see? I was right... they only feel weak because of 5 man IS and 5 man rifles. You're not supposed to counter strong mainline infantry with more mainline infantry. MG42, sniper, and mortar are your friend here... which USF lacks all 3, UKF can't build mobile mortar, they do have an mg and getting a sniper is not an option if they decide to blob IS. If so, they wouldn't have enough MP for a vehicle counter and that's where flamer halftrack (not mortar) comes into play.

Getting cons to vet 3 is not easy. they aren't durable nor do damage like a rifleman squad so they don't vet quickly... you usually have to waste munitions spamming AT grenade to vet them lol.

I'm just worried if you give ppsh non-doctrine... some players will just blob cons until T3 and blob some more and that's no fun either. 1-2 shocktrooper squads are bad enough now imagine like 4 cons squads with ppsh... ulgh, i don't like blobs :(
15 Jan 2016, 23:11 PM
#60
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned


Grens do not have weak veterancy... not at all. Can you go over what is vet 2 and 3 again? i believe it's increase in accuracy and receive accuracy.

And see? I was right... they only feel weak because of 5 man IS and 5 man rifles. You're not supposed to counter strong mainline infantry with more mainline infantry. MG42, sniper, and mortar are your friend here... which USF lacks all 3, UKF can't build mobile mortar, they do have an mg and getting a sniper is not an option if they decide to blob IS. If so, they wouldn't have enough MP for a vehicle counter and that's where flamer halftrack (not mortar) comes into play.

Getting cons to vet 3 is not easy. they aren't durable nor do damage like a rifleman squad so they don't vet quickly... you usually have to waste munitions spamming AT grenade to vet them lol.

I'm just worried if you give ppsh non-doctrine... some players will just blob cons until T3 and blob some more and that's no fun either. 1-2 shocktrooper squads are bad enough now imagine like 4 cons squads with ppsh... ulgh, i don't like blobs :(
hmmm, well Ive played those who tried to blob ppsh cons. Trust me, its nowhere near as difficult to fight as shrek blobs or rifle blobs. Which are really the only true blob threats. Maybe I shouldn't say gren vet is weak, its more like grens are the weakest of the mainline infantry in terms of durability. Idk its just whenever I play ostheer, it feels like the whole army is so fragile and collapses so easily with one good flank or light vehicle rush. Grens and pgrens aren't that good. Its all snipers, mgs and ostruppen. It feels like every time I try to use grenadiers vs americans or british that I'm just wasting my time and should just go build ostruppen, dont even think about pgrens other than for shrecks. So I think being able to buy g43 and lmg42 isn't that bad, I'd atleast want to test it out.

Cons don't have much firepower, but they are more easily kept alive and trade very efficiently and absorb well, when you get them to vet 3. Their purpose to rush into the weak spots on the front and throw molotovs and AT nades while tanks and support crews follow up. I'd prefer they not have that increased +9% received acc at vet 0 though.
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