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Enough is enough, fix the volks

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25 Dec 2015, 19:24 PM
#241
avatar of Xutryn_X7

Posts: 131

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Dec 2015, 12:49 PMDomine



I really think you're overestimating what UKFs mgs and the Mortar pit can do. It's not that easy for Brits, especially when a fast Luchs suddenly appears.

Sorry,i forgot to say this strategy works in 4vs4..in 1vs1 and 2vs2 this one doesn't work
26 Dec 2015, 00:24 AM
#242
avatar of LafoMamone

Posts: 16



Well, to be fair, SC2 is 'easier' to balance. SC2 has a fairly big Esport scene where there are many pro player who can give their imput on game balance. They also have no shortage of pro-vs-pro replays and data to balance their game on. They also have the budget to crank out new and better balanced maps every season.


Played SC2 a lot, and so tired of it. Its all about cheese and one simple mistake looses the match.
COH got way more potential to be a great game, just needs resources.
They should just enable mirror matchups in COH2 as there are in SC2, then there would be much less crying about balance.
26 Dec 2015, 11:10 AM
#243
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1



Played SC2 a lot, and so tired of it. Its all about cheese and one simple mistake looses the match.
COH got way more potential to be a great game, just needs resources.
They should just enable mirror matchups in COH2 as there are in SC2, then there would be much less crying about balance.


The fact that SC2 is full of different cheeses and it punishes mistakes doesn't really have anything to do with balance though. Every cheese in SC2 has a counter, and back when I played it, cheese wasn't even all that common in the master-league. Most people knew how to counter them so people preferred to go into macro-matches.

And I think you might over-estimate the potential of CoH2. CoH2 has dug itself in a deep hole with it's P2W commander system and the huge benefits some commanders give over others.
26 Dec 2015, 21:16 PM
#244
avatar of Rappy

Posts: 526

After those videos suddenly all the Allies fanboys are being quiet.
Hat
27 Dec 2015, 10:58 AM
#245
avatar of Hat

Posts: 166

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 21:16 PMRappy
After those videos suddenly all the Allies fanboys are being quiet.


OKW and USF don't exist in a vacuum. You can't just dismiss criticisms of OKW with criticisms of USF.
27 Dec 2015, 13:05 PM
#246
avatar of Remo

Posts: 111

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Dec 2015, 10:58 AMHat


OKW and USF don't exist in a vacuum. You can't just dismiss criticisms of OKW with criticisms of USF.


When people act that way it's effectively like saying "No u!", it's a horribly stupid way to argue a point. lol

Can you honestly expect better from these forums?
28 Dec 2015, 20:13 PM
#247
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2015, 21:28 PMZeaviS


I think that's a fair point, but I'd say it goes both ways. Let's take your example, 3 squads of volks schrek turn the corner and shoot at a sherman, that's a 360 damage, little bit more than half health, so you retreat, and this is assuming all shots hit.

Counter example, 3 rifle squads with double zooks turn the corner and find an okw p4 and fire, so that's 6 bazooka shots, let's say half pen, that's 3 * 80 = 240 damage + 3 * 20 deflection damage = 300 total damage, so about 45% ish life. The p4 will still want to retreat, difference here, maybe one of the rifles is vet1, and attempts to snare, if it hits, p4 is screwed, if not it gets away and we're back to similar outcomes as with the volks and sherman.

I would argue, volks need that shock value because OKW doesn't have a non-doctrinal snare and raketens have relatively low range compared to other AT guns, so it kind of fits with their army composition.

And yes I'm talking from a team game perspective as well.


I disagree. I would have to have 3 riflemen squads with 6 zookas... Most players (good) should only have about 3 riflemen squads + lt/cpt and you'd be bleeding MP. If you spend all yours slots on zookas, who will kill the infantry?

For OKW, volks can screen for their more elite DPS infantry, obers+lmg, fallschims
For USF, what are the AT riflemen screening for? That's why you usually see riflemen blobs with generally more AI weapons m1919, bars, to kill the volks/elite infantry blob.

That's a core reason why volks were nerfed initially (long long time ago) because they would kill vehicles and alternate with obers to kill infantry.

In team games, you will generally see some people often skipping p4 for panther. if i skip sherman for jackson, you can clearly see the difference.

blob of volks will demolish a jackson but even with a blob of riflemen i'd say a panther is well better off. after a couple strikes on the side of a panther, most frontal shots will be deflected (assuming Axis player knows how to rear reverse vehicle).

So, that is US weak point... vehicles, but it makes USF much more micro intensive. panther and volks i feel are not.



Again, i would trade 2 zooks for a shrek anyday.
28 Dec 2015, 22:56 PM
#248
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 21:16 PMRappy
After those videos suddenly all the Allies fanboys are being quiet.


the bazooka were recently buffed as well. cheaper + greater accuracy goes a long way in making bazooka as broken as the volks schreck.

now the USF and OKW can both do rocket blob.
29 Dec 2015, 09:05 AM
#249
avatar of ausownage

Posts: 117



Played SC2 a lot, and so tired of it. Its all about cheese and one simple mistake looses the match.
COH got way more potential to be a great game, just needs resources.
They should just enable mirror matchups in COH2 as there are in SC2, then there would be much less crying about balance.


Hey there,

I have to disagree about cheese. What league are you in? I'm in gold and I see cheese maybe one in ten games... even then it's not too hard to counter.

But yeh, you're right about one simple mistake loosing you the match. Plus, the APM requirements can be very stressful. CoH is a breath of fresh air for me as I don't have to worry about high APMs.
29 Dec 2015, 11:40 AM
#250
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 761



I disagree. I would have to have 3 riflemen squads with 6 zookas... Most players (good) should only have about 3 riflemen squads + lt/cpt and you'd be bleeding MP. If you spend all yours slots on zookas, who will kill the infantry?

For OKW, volks can screen for their more elite DPS infantry, obers+lmg, fallschims
For USF, what are the AT riflemen screening for? That's why you usually see riflemen blobs with generally more AI weapons m1919, bars, to kill the volks/elite infantry blob.

That's a core reason why volks were nerfed initially (long long time ago) because they would kill vehicles and alternate with obers to kill infantry.

In team games, you will generally see some people often skipping p4 for panther. if i skip sherman for jackson, you can clearly see the difference.

blob of volks will demolish a jackson but even with a blob of riflemen i'd say a panther is well better off. after a couple strikes on the side of a panther, most frontal shots will be deflected (assuming Axis player knows how to rear reverse vehicle).

So, that is US weak point... vehicles, but it makes USF much more micro intensive. panther and volks i feel are not.



Again, i would trade 2 zooks for a shrek anyday.


Wait the okw somehow has infinite mp? volks and rifles nearly cost the same. you can have 1.5 rifles for each elite okw infantry unit. and the jackson vs panther is really stupid mate. you are comparing a glass cannon vs a meatshield.
Phy
29 Dec 2015, 12:31 PM
#251
avatar of Phy

Posts: 509 | Subs: 1

29 Dec 2015, 12:53 PM
#252
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1058



the bazooka were recently buffed as well. cheaper + greater accuracy goes a long way in making bazooka as broken as the volks schreck.

now the USF and OKW can both do rocket blob.


Yeah they really need to add more infantry to the USF, at the moment there is no choice but to blob riflemen in order to have the firepower needed to tackle the OKW blob. Both factions have their faults and need correcting I just think the OKW needs looking at asap.
29 Dec 2015, 15:04 PM
#253
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Dec 2015, 11:40 AMZyllen


Wait the okw somehow has infinite mp? volks and rifles nearly cost the same. you can have 1.5 rifles for each elite okw infantry unit. and the jackson vs panther is really stupid mate. you are comparing a glass cannon vs a meatshield.


Uhh, do you play team? Do you see many players skip p4? so that's why panther comes into play. panther is not a meatshield... it's a tank hunter with heavy armor and good mobility... please get your facts straight.

If i anticipate a panther coming, i'm not going to build a sherman (cannot penetrate effectively), my counter is jackson.

given equal circumstances and my zooka riflemen flank a panther, it would probably survive. if volks flank a jackson, it probably won't survive.

have you NEVER seen volks and elites work in synergy? volks screen, elites DPS. do you not play as OKW and see floating MP? i'm sure floating mp when i play. as long as i don't feed units to my enemies, i'm golden. if i spent all my MP on zooks, riflemen would get raped by elites

playercard please. my allies w/l ratio is ~60%. my OKW is 75 and OST is 80. Axis 3+ team games is easier to play. i'm not saying it's impossible, i'm just saying you have it harder as allies

why are the stats showing the highest percentages in USF/OKW? because they're the mainline infantry blobbing factions. you can disagree but that doesn't change the stats.
30 Dec 2015, 04:51 AM
#254
avatar of ZeaviS

Posts: 160



I disagree. I would have to have 3 riflemen squads with 6 zookas... Most players (good) should only have about 3 riflemen squads + lt/cpt and you'd be bleeding MP. If you spend all yours slots on zookas, who will kill the infantry?


For OKW, volks can screen for their more elite DPS infantry, obers+lmg, fallschims
For USF, what are the AT riflemen screening for? That's why you usually see riflemen blobs with generally more AI weapons m1919, bars, to kill the volks/elite infantry blob.




Well, I don't typically get zooks on my riflemen but I've done it before on certain commanders. They could screen for paras or rangers which are doctrine dependant but are elite.

Keep in mind if you get a captain, that's 2 right there, and then you can get 2 on rear echelons. So, I also have at least 4 zooks somewhere in my infantry. That's why a single zook is cheap and weaker than a schrek, you have flexibility on what squads you can equip them on.



That's a core reason why volks were nerfed initially (long long time ago) because they would kill vehicles and alternate with obers to kill infantry.



right, but they were rightfully nerfed and now aren't that much of an AI threat, even vet3 cons deal with them effectively.


In team games, you will generally see some people often skipping p4 for panther. if i skip sherman for jackson, you can clearly see the difference.

blob of volks will demolish a jackson but even with a blob of riflemen i'd say a panther is well better off. after a couple strikes on the side of a panther, most frontal shots will be deflected (assuming Axis player knows how to rear reverse vehicle).

So, that is US weak point... vehicles, but it makes USF much more micro intensive. panther and volks i feel are not.



Again, i would trade 2 zooks for a shrek anyday.


I would quibble with your scenario here in that a jackson is not the equivalent of a panther. You wouldn't skip a sherman to get a jackson, you just pick one depending on what you need because they are in the same tier. Of course a blob of schreks would demolish a jackson, a blob of zooks would destroy a jackson too.

I agree that the micro is more noob friendly, but a well micro-ed USF army would still beat a point and click okw blob.

The only reason I like 1 schrek more than 2 zooks is because 2 zooks take up 2 slots, 1 schrek just needs 1. But I also think, the way zooks work synergizes better with USF than it does with OKW, that's why it's designed that way. You need to consider army synergy.

I can show you videos of 4 zooks killing a panther faster than 2 schreks if you want. And this is from the front.


I'll just say that, if you want remove schreks from volks, you'll need to buff raketens along with other stuff probably. Which is fine with me as long as it's balanced. I just really dislike the idea of taking away schreks and giving them a faust, because then they'll just turn into crappier wehr grens and homogeneous armies or boring as hell.
30 Dec 2015, 16:00 PM
#255
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2015, 04:51 AMZeaviS



Well, I don't typically get zooks on my riflemen but I've done it before on certain commanders. They could screen for paras or rangers which are doctrine dependant but are elite.

Keep in mind if you get a captain, that's 2 right there, and then you can get 2 on rear echelons. So, I also have at least 4 zooks somewhere in my infantry. That's why a single zook is cheap and weaker than a schrek, you have flexibility on what squads you can equip them on.



right, but they were rightfully nerfed and now aren't that much of an AI threat, even vet3 cons deal with them effectively.



I would quibble with your scenario here in that a jackson is not the equivalent of a panther. You wouldn't skip a sherman to get a jackson, you just pick one depending on what you need because they are in the same tier. Of course a blob of schreks would demolish a jackson, a blob of zooks would destroy a jackson too.

I agree that the micro is more noob friendly, but a well micro-ed USF army would still beat a point and click okw blob.

The only reason I like 1 schrek more than 2 zooks is because 2 zooks take up 2 slots, 1 schrek just needs 1. But I also think, the way zooks work synergizes better with USF than it does with OKW, that's why it's designed that way. You need to consider army synergy.

I can show you videos of 4 zooks killing a panther faster than 2 schreks if you want. And this is from the front.


I'll just say that, if you want remove schreks from volks, you'll need to buff raketens along with other stuff probably. Which is fine with me as long as it's balanced. I just really dislike the idea of taking away schreks and giving them a faust, because then they'll just turn into crappier wehr grens and homogeneous armies or boring as hell.


Vet 3 cons... when in the game do they get there?
Volks can handle AI relatively well in game with 20% damage boost.
1 RE 2 zooks, 2 riflemen 2 zooks, 1 captain vs 3 volks and 1 sturm.
If i saw a captain, i wouldn't need to make shreks right away because he would need 145 fuel for stuart. Even if i did, focus fire RE first and he has to retreat or captain before he gets close to sturms. 1 riflemen lost 40% damage to 2 zooks and 1 normal squad. I'd say the match up would be even if not in favor of OKW.

This is not to mention that USF has to get a side upgrade and retreat back to base to equip the weapons where as OKW can just do it at the front.

I like a balanced game too but I'd prefer either to make AT rockets the same. either give 2 shreks with the same values as zookas or limit 1 zooka with the same values as shrek.

yeah army synergy. just look at my playercard please. i play all factions and i don't even play Axis as much but my stats clearly show... or i'm just that lucky over 500+ games
31 Dec 2015, 04:10 AM
#256
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2015, 04:51 AMZeaviS





To say that volks schreck is okay just because the Rifleman can pull off the same thing is ignoring the realities of the two games.

The Schreck blob have the OKW's bread and butter since release, and it have only been tolerated because it was really the only reliable strategy for the OKW and it was beatabe.

Except now the OKW doesn't need the schreck blob. They have access to some of the most powerful tank in the game. Pziv, jp4, panther, and King Tiger give the OKW the most powerful tank line up in the game.

Even taking into account doctrinal call in, the OKW armor corp is still the most powerful line up.

A USF player trying to bazooka spam is going to quickly realize that's his only bag of trick. The OKW schreck isn't just powerful because of its own strength, it's because the blob is backed up by some of the most powerful unit in the game.


I hate bazooka blob and schreck equally. The bazooka blob was only tolerated because it was weak.

31 Dec 2015, 06:00 AM
#257
avatar of LafoMamone

Posts: 16

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Dec 2015, 14:38 PMruzen
People just dont want to deal with factions strong side. All factions strength could be cheezy one but It is there none the less. USF has deadly blobs and can heal faster than anyone, Ostheer has strong late game, etc...

I mostly play USF and OKW the reason I have to tell what factions I'm playing with is because community has divided in two (Axis vs Allies) since CoH 1.

People are more protective about their favorite faction because there is two side in this game but with 5 factions!!! Faction balance cant be achived, If there are no mirror-match in a strategy game.

All this "You have this! I have that!" talk is happening because same factions dont compete with eachother. Maybe only than people could become more openly discuss about their favorite faction.

It is all Relic's fault for hiding behind "authenticity" side of WW2. Well Its suppose to be a strategy game, not war simulation!

I dont need a reason to belive 2 Soviets fighting with each other. I only care about strategy & tactical side.


Sounds good, mirror matchup would filter out true imbalance and put an end to crybabies whenever they encounter a challenge.
There should also be an official hardcore mode for those that want historicly accurate weapon preformance. Something like Battlefield 4, one mode for gameplay one for sim.

When it comes to blobing issue, simplest solution is to make them way less accurate on move, and improve protection by cover for those that are in cover.

Moving in blobs is actually a big NO-NO in RL infantry movement as one mortar shell can wipe entire squad. So it should be possible but way more risky then micro.

31 Dec 2015, 06:33 AM
#258
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

The problem, I feel, is that WFA introduced this idea that you can have infantry this is good at everything (even if masters at nothing). So you can see Volks with decent AI + shrecks + grenade, as well as rifles/captain with decent AI + grenades + zooks.

This wasn't really present in the original game. Yes, Guards have DPs and PTRS, but the latter is nowhere near useful against anything bigger than a halftrack, as it should. Shrecks are on a dedicated, (perhaps overly) expensive platform. Conscripts have AT nades, but no non-doctrinal means of even harming vehicles beyond that. Handheld AT was specialized, in a word. Which was IMO a step up from CoH1 and discourage omnipotent blobs of doom.

Now, both USF and OKW can have entire blobs that put on a decent show against infantry and can also challenge nearly anything on wheels. So it leads to the proverbial doomblobs that other factions have a much harder time doing. Sure, you can blob LMG grens or conscripts. Any decently microed vehicle will ruin your day, however. Not so with Volks or zookas who just shoot their tubes at it.

It is still worse with OKW because they naturally get their shrecks on their basic infantry, with no teching required and with no other possible upgrades to put on them, whereas at least USF has it compete with 2 other weapons and lock zookas behind tech so you somewhat rarely see them beyond a captain. I can't recall a single game vs OKW that didn't result in 3+ shrecked volks prancing around even if not blobbed.

Brits also use this model, but PIATs are so shit that they haven't been hit by this (because PIATs can't hit anything. Get it?).
31 Dec 2015, 08:51 AM
#259
avatar of Sukulaku

Posts: 2

What makes me wonder is that they've spent years and years balancing the game, fixing things and introducing new mechanics and did all this only to make blobbing the most viable, easy overall strategy in the game? It's ridiculous how stupid the devs can be. That takes special kind of stupidity.

I kinda was hoping for Dawn of War 3. After seeing how they're able to ruin games by "balancing", I just want Relic gone :D
1 Jan 2016, 15:54 PM
#260
avatar of A big guy 4u

Posts: 168

What makes me wonder is that they've spent years and years balancing the game, fixing things and introducing new mechanics and did all this only to make blobbing the most viable, easy overall strategy in the game? It's ridiculous how stupid the devs can be. That takes special kind of stupidity.

I kinda was hoping for Dawn of War 3. After seeing how they're able to ruin games by "balancing", I just want Relic gone :D


Be careful, you're gonna get banned for that!

PRAISE RELIC! THE BEST DEV EVER!HAIL RELIC, DEV OF DEVS!

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