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23 Nov 2015, 16:20 PM
#701
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1



That's true, but Relic got their ideas from the community. (Not you specifically, necessarily but still) There's a whole thread where they pretty much copied 80% of the changes from even.

I agree, if they have 100% of fuel then their units should probably be atleast 25% more expensive, but I'd really prefer they just didn't give them 100% resources and instead made resource conversion a global ability on the HQ. Maybe tweaked the amount of resources you got for converting slightly.

They just really took a jackhammer to a nail with this overhaul. It's half baked at best and not very well thought out.


if they cost 25% more we can just keep the current system btw, thus negating the whole purpose of the redesign
23 Nov 2015, 16:21 PM
#702
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 824



No homogenization is making similar units all come out at the exact same time for the exact same cost and turning OKW into USF 2.0 like this patch does. (Only with a better late game.)



USF doesn't tech through placeable trucks and can build caches. Their mainline infantry are vastly superior at AI to Volks. I don't see how the faction is USF 2.0. People are calling this faction Wher 2.0, USF 2.0... this faction's identity was bad and hard to blanace so yes it had to change. Anyone remember that chart Relic put out a few months ago (right before the Brits released) that gave what time certain factions were supposed to be better than other factions. Well OKW and USF were both supposed to be the early game factions, although USF ended up being the only early game dominate faction(I remember the lols from people over how bad Relic understood their own factions). Yes this redo improves OKW's early game, but that doesn't make them a clone of USF. If anything Brits are the closest to a direct faction clone(clone of Wher) and I don't see people having nearly as much of a hissy fit about that as they are for OKW's redesign.

I do still think the redeisng needs some work like late game vehicles' costs need to be increased, but I don't think upping the cost of Schwer truck would be good due to it making Obers come too late for the cost. Since we are in a mod of patch phase why not try out Sturms with Shreks and AI package for Volks? Also Vet requirements could still be lowered by like 10% on most OKW units due to how ridiculous it is to even get Vet 3 with most of them.
23 Nov 2015, 16:22 PM
#703
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1



I tought you was trolling in that post.

Because it would be such major nerf to okw.

If would be like Ok they have small amound of munition , so we give them 25 % more munition and then we will lock 90 % of core design thinks behind munition


Like any other faction? Huh no, because they also pay fuel for the majority of their upgrades. Should we lock shreck behind a 150mp/15fuel lock?

So you also have full fuel to build Pumas/Luch/HT etc... + T0 raken. It is not like you have no other solutions to counter what you face.
23 Nov 2015, 16:38 PM
#704
avatar of Svalbard SD

Posts: 327



Thank you for trying to put more essence into my comment, I totally appreciate it. The person does have a point, yet the blame does not ly with the Pershing, neither with its shells. The blame lies with squad spacing, nothing the Pershing nor any other tank should suffer for or can do anything about.

Here's how your reply to the person would/should have looked if you referred to unit clumping only:

He is mad that clumped up falls get one shotted by a 90 mm main gun from a heavy tank.

In addition to the fact that if you believe one-shotting is an issue and not OK, you correct the other person on the cause of the issue, not try discrediting them by calling for their posts to be ignored.
23 Nov 2015, 16:39 PM
#705
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384


Their mainline infantry are vastly superior at AI to Volks. I don't see how the faction is USF 2.0.


The volks buffs don't put them on the same level as Riflemen exactly, but it makes them play very similar. Previously when idiots built 3-4 volksgrenadiers they had a real hard time of it because it's a stupid build order. But now it's rewarded with more damage and more affordable panzerschrecks. (100% income, I realize the 70 muni cost was reverted) Add into that cheaper sturmpios and it's basically assault engineers + riflemen. The new kubel is probably okay in combat too, although better used to go cap stuff while your volk blob is fighting now. They also lost their early game suppression, which makes them more like America. Volks have regular grenades now though, to let them be used like riflemen. :|

Throw into that pot their new tech system which gives them a psuedo-lieutenant and psuedo-captain (choosing one of the two massively delays the other) that come around the same time as those do.

The old design dominated early game if you actually used kubelwagons, multiple sturmpios etc. If you did the typical volk spam builds ofc you struggled early game. You're spamming an AT/utility unit like they are frontline infantry. It also had a way better tech structure, moving JP4 to t3 and luchs to t2 was stupid as hell. Those units existed to fulfill gaps that you would have if you went for certain tech paths. If you went T1 + T2, JP4 gave you a reliable counter to medium or heavy tanks. If you went T1 + T3 the luchs provided you with a light vehicle. (Although personally T2 + T3 is where its at) Now they have a what may as well be linear teching structure.




I just don't think they needed to be hit by a huge freight train of changes. Especially when those changes just make them play like other factions. They had a unique identity and some fun teching strategies and now they have a pretty boring tech tree. They're also blatantly overpowered now, and will be for months.
23 Nov 2015, 16:41 PM
#706
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 16:22 PMEsxile


Like any other faction? Huh no, because they also pay fuel for the majority of their upgrades. Should we lock shreck behind a 150mp/15fuel lock?

So you also have full fuel to build Pumas/Luch/HT etc... + T0 raken. It is not like you have no other solutions to counter what you face.


I think they should pay for shreck and nades (both) as research.
At least OKW would have garriosn counter / light vehicle counter before truck is set up.
But then we should decrease MP cost of SWT truck

Also dont forget their manpower float is now nonexistant because of fuel increase (more vehicles mean less mp becuase of build cost) and also truck cost 150 mp so all in teching will cost them +450 MP

23 Nov 2015, 17:16 PM
#707
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 824



The volks buffs don't put them on the same level as Riflemen exactly, but it makes them play very similar. Previously when idiots built 3-4 volksgrenadiers they had a real hard time of it because it's a stupid build order. But now it's rewarded with more damage and more affordable panzerschrecks. (100% income, I realize the 70 muni cost was reverted) Add into that cheaper sturmpios and it's basically assault engineers + riflemen. The new kubel is probably okay in combat too, although better used to go cap stuff while your volk blob is fighting now. They also lost their early game suppression, which makes them more like America. Volks have regular grenades now though, to let them be used like riflemen. :|

Volks don't get any kind of AI weapon upgrade unlike USF, Brit, and Wher mainline infantry. Assault Engies are a doctrinal unit and several doctrines for every faction give them units to fill in gaps where they don't have units. So they really shouldn't count as being the same as Sturmpios which are non-doctrinal. USF don't have a capping unit like the Kubel so even more reason that OKW isn't some clone of USF.

Throw into that pot their new tech system which gives them a psuedo-lieutenant and psuedo-captain (choosing one of the two massively delays the other) that come around the same time as those do.

Lieutenant doesn't heal and Captain doesn't repair vehicles and they both can MOVE. They are vastly different than the trucks design.

The old design dominated early game if you actually used kubelwagons, multiple sturmpios etc. If you did the typical volk spam builds ofc you struggled early game. You're spamming an AT/utility unit like they are frontline infantry.

Watching several matches and from my own experiences this really wasn't a common strategy due to not being that good. It cut down on the amount of capping you could do and good Allied players would take that time to cap a lot more area.

It also had a way better tech structure, moving JP4 to t3 and luchs to t2 was stupid as hell. Those units existed to fulfill gaps that you would have if you went for certain tech paths. If you went T1 + T2, JP4 gave you a reliable counter to medium or heavy tanks. If you went T1 + T3 the luchs provided you with a light vehicle. (Although personally T2 + T3 is where its at) Now they have a what may as well be linear teching structure.

Their tech structure has ALWAYS been the same as USF. You can go T1 or T2 which are needed for T3 or you can go all 3 Tiers. Their tech line has solidly been T1 for several patches now(since ISG super buff). Players felt that the JP4 was coming too early and that the Luchs was coming too late, therefore the switch. Many strategies cna still be used, playing without the healing truck is tough and I think Allies can abuse that to wipe some squads.

I just don't think they needed to be hit by a huge freight train of changes. Especially when those changes just make them play like other factions. They had a unique identity and some fun teching strategies and now they have a pretty boring tech tree. They're also blatantly overpowered now, and will be for months.

The patch isn't finalized so "OKW will be OP for months" holds no water. The meta will take several months to settle and people will bitch and moan about this and that being broken, but players will adapt and after 2-3 months if their really is that single OP strategy/unit the next patch should be ready to fix it. OKW still have a unique identity, no faction has movable tech buildings hat give bonuses on the field, no faction has a capping light vehicle, no faction has a heavy like the King Tiger non-doctrinally(maybe the Churchill). There are going to be certain similarities to design to every faction, it is impossible to balance 5 factions and keep every one of them completely unique. Strategies will always be viable depending on the player's skill. Less skilled players will always use whatever one of the higher ranked player's uses to win a tourney. It happens in every game, there will always be a few units/tactics superior to others and you use those if you want to win more easily. There are always the less powerful units/tactics which can be used for more fun, but are harder to win with.
23 Nov 2015, 17:42 PM
#708
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

+1 broodwarj , I cant write it better.

Dullahan please tell me how it pure Ai tech or AT tech similar to tech
That will support you infantry play (give you medics , ifnantry support gun , maphack and infantry support vehicle) or it will give you vehicle heavy play without heal.

Also OKW have better late game than USA , weaker early game , no good AI until like rifles , etc etc etc.

And volks are not rifles. They perform like grens , not like rifles.
And stumr are panzergrens not assault engineers (engi are squadshy and utility while Spios are more midrange brute force)
23 Nov 2015, 18:03 PM
#709
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830


Here's how your reply to the person would/should have looked if you referred to unit clumping only:

I responded to Katikof's remark, which I strenghtened by showing that the problem said person was promoting, simply doesn't exist. The problem isn't a 90 mm gun one shotting a squad, let alone anything one shotting a squad, it is simply squads humping up and model placement. The point I made in that comment was simply, you can't be mad at the Pershing since it is part of the problem but not the problem. If you can't see that, well, then I don't know what to tell you.


In addition to the fact that if you believe one-shotting is an issue and not OK, you correct the other person on the cause of the issue, not try discrediting them by calling for their posts to be ignored.


Where did I call for a post to be ignored? I can't seem to find it, could you please provide these claims with evidence? Again, you try to add essence to my comments, which I appreciate, but you again can't be further from the truth. I never said one shotting is an issue in my first comment to katikof, so how come you again claim something I didn't say? Further more, I didn't need to correct said person, since I was responding to Katikof, who made the problem quite clear himself.

Now please, stop trying to alter information in order to make your point valid just by simply altering my lines or comments so they serve you for this purpose. If not, I will report you for trolling.
23 Nov 2015, 18:32 PM
#710
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

OKW starting resource increased from 0 to 10
Battlegroup HQ reduced from 30 fuel to 25
Mecahnized Regiment HQ increased from 40 to 50 fuel
Schwerer Panzer HQ cost increased 100 fuel to 105 fuel
Volks regular grenade removed again
Luch Penetration reduced from 25 to 20
Infantry section damage reverted back from 14 to 16
Infantry section targets reverted back from 0.9 to 0.8
Infantry section veterancy 2 recieved accuracy modifer increased from 0.66 to 0.76
Bolster Infantry cost increased from 100/25 to 150/35
German Supply Drop zone plane comes in from longest path so that you can shoot down the plane now.


Very good update.

Love that German Supply was brought in line with allied (tho still unbalanced cause of flak base emplacements)
bC_
4 of 9 Relic postsRelic 23 Nov 2015, 18:32 PM
#711
avatar of bC_
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 102 | Subs: 22

December Balance Preview Notes

Mod available @ http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=557952243

OKW starting resource increased from 0 to 10
Battlegroup HQ reduced from 30 fuel to 25
Mecahnized Regiment HQ increased from 40 to 50 fuel
Schwerer Panzer HQ cost increased 100 fuel to 105 fuel
Volks regular grenade removed again
Luch Penetration reduced from 25 to 20
Infantry section damage reverted back from 14 to 16
Infantry section targets reverted back from 0.9 to 0.8
Infantry section veterancy 2 recieved accuracy modifer increased from 0.66 to 0.76
Bolster Infantry cost increased from 100/25 to 150/35
German Supply Drop zone plane comes in from longest path so that you can shoot down the plane now.
23 Nov 2015, 18:36 PM
#712
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 18:32 PMbC_
December Balance Preview Notes

Mod available @ http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=557952243

German Supply Drop zone plane comes in from longest path so that you can shoot down the plane now.



So basicly a shitty version of soviet supply drop.

It get shout down easily and it can be also stolen.

Ah why come on volks ?

Can´t you just replace the russian one with german one ?

Russian one was one button clik that can be countered by AA unit that will counter it forever , while ostheer one can be countered by good unit play and stealing supplys while enemy can protect it with mines and mgs and other stuff (talking mainly from 1vs1)

I think german one was almo more risk vs reward and skill vs reward. I like that type of abilities more.

Please relic can´t you make it as I like ?
23 Nov 2015, 18:43 PM
#713
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 985 | Subs: 2

Which is the grenade who stays? regular or fire?
Because had twice before
23 Nov 2015, 18:43 PM
#714
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3




Russian one was one button clik that can be countered by AA unit that will counter it forever , while ostheer one can be countered by good unit play and stealing supplys while enemy can protect it with mines and mgs and other stuff (talking mainly from 1vs1)

I think german one was almo more risk vs reward and skill vs reward. I like that type of abilities more.

Please relic can´t you make it as I like ?


I think you have to respect the fact that the german one is 200 mp for fuel or ammo. While the soviet is exclusively muni into fuel.
bC_
5 of 9 Relic postsRelic 23 Nov 2015, 18:45 PM
#715
avatar of bC_
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 102 | Subs: 22

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 18:43 PMcapiqua
Which is the grenade who stays? regular or fire?
Because had twice before


Volks regular grenade removed again
23 Nov 2015, 18:45 PM
#716
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 18:32 PMbC_
December Balance Preview Notes

Bolster Infantry cost increased from 100/25 to 150/35


So now what's the point of having it available in T1?
bC_
6 of 9 Relic postsRelic 23 Nov 2015, 18:45 PM
#717
avatar of bC_
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 102 | Subs: 22




So basicly a shitty version of soviet supply drop.

It get shout down easily and it can be also stolen.

Ah why come on volks ?

Can´t you just replace the russian one with german one ?

Russian one was one button clik that can be countered by AA unit that will counter it forever , while ostheer one can be countered by good unit play and stealing supplys while enemy can protect it with mines and mgs and other stuff (talking mainly from 1vs1)

I think german one was almo more risk vs reward and skill vs reward. I like that type of abilities more.

Please relic can´t you make it as I like ?



you get way more with the axis one too
23 Nov 2015, 18:48 PM
#718
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 955

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 18:32 PMbC_
December Balance Preview Notes

Mod available @ http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=557952243

OKW starting resource increased from 0 to 10
Battlegroup HQ reduced from 30 fuel to 25
Mecahnized Regiment HQ increased from 40 to 50 fuel
Schwerer Panzer HQ cost increased 100 fuel to 105 fuel
Volks regular grenade removed again
Luch Penetration reduced from 25 to 20
Infantry section damage reverted back from 14 to 16
Infantry section targets reverted back from 0.9 to 0.8
Infantry section veterancy 2 recieved accuracy modifer increased from 0.66 to 0.76
Bolster Infantry cost increased from 100/25 to 150/35
German Supply Drop zone plane comes in from longest path so that you can shoot down the plane now.


Well that IS reverting was surely needed (except for the vet2 change)
But i don't understand removing the volks grenade (not that allied players wouldn't have an easy time dodging it, after those reaction speed exercises with flame-nades)
23 Nov 2015, 18:55 PM
#719
avatar of Svalbard SD

Posts: 327

(1)
The problem isn't a 90 mm gun one shotting a squad, let alone anything one shotting a squad, it is simply squads humping up and model placement.

Then you point out squad humping - not squad humping and gun calibre/unit eliteness/size/etc in an effort to diminish the person's views by appearing to imply they don't understand that guns that big should evaporate units - while responding to what you perceive as wrong understanding of the core reason of the issue. Like I highlighted in my previous post.

(2)
Where did I call for a post to be ignored?

I don't know if you tend to forget your own posts but:
I wouldn't even quote him in the future if I were you.


You keep saying you didn't mean what I've been replying to, but all I've been replying to has been derived from the way you responded to the person in question. And not just the essence but the insulting and ironic reference to their thoughts. If that was unintended fine, but that doesn't make the post in question sound any better.
23 Nov 2015, 18:55 PM
#720
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 18:45 PMbC_



you get way more with the axis one too



Also will you ever look at soveit light at gun in urban defence dotrine as well as HQ cost and tank spoting , when you are revamping commaders ?

And will you look at bad spot penals

And soveit cover to cover sniper camo that is nonexisten ?

And can you give g43 to stormtroopens ?

Or decrease hetzer vet requirements ?

And give a look to liehtenaunt tier after all these changes go live ?

And buff AC to puma level becouse now british mid game is almost nonexistent due no counter to light vehicle except at gun. They also does not have AT nade. (with cost increase of course)

Thx for replay Brad , youre really great (today i was looking at begnining of year and we had call in meta nad shreckvols+ ober blobs into KT and PTRS spammers , game evolved really greatly from that THX for all).
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