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russian armor

HTD needs to go

22 Jun 2013, 14:11 PM
#1
avatar of Shazz

Posts: 194

I'm done playing this game 1v1 as Germans until HTD is fixed or until someone points out something very obvious I am missing.

I usually dominate the early game, pre doctrine. I almost always win the first several engagements with grens. Then HTD gets unlocked and from there on out it's GG. I cannot hold any ground because conscripts Ooorah to close the gap, HTD inside the cap circle, then molotov if I stick around.

I can push them back sometimes with bundle nades, maybe a lucky rifle nade, but there aren't enough munitions to counter the constant HTD and a really good player can still dodge them.

Eventually map control fails, tech fails, and now there's a T70 or T34 and I have nothing.

I have tried:

-Bundle nades
-Rifle nades
-Flamethrower pios
-Flamethrower HT (that's a huge gamble to save munis for the upgrade, basically last ditch effort by the time it gets out and usually met with armor)
-Mortar
-Sniper (sniper seems to miss HTD regularly?!)

Aaaand... that's basically it because I'll never to get T3 and if I do won't be able to save 115 fuel for an Ost.

The doubly frustrating part is that whenever I use this tactic as the Sovs it is stupidly effective, so I don't feel like I am just "missing something", though I am happy to be enlightened.
22 Jun 2013, 14:21 PM
#2
avatar of talarfon

Posts: 74

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2013, 14:11 PMShazz

I can push them back sometimes with bundle nades, maybe a lucky rifle nade, but there aren't enough munitions to counter the constant HTD and a really good player can still dodge them.


Ermmm how can a really good player dodge them?? By retreating? Surely that means you get map control?

I do agree it's strong however, IMO a change should be made so that damage output is reduced while ability is active to something like x0.75 damage dealt which would mean that it's not so powerful when used with hoorah to close the distance.

End of the day though, that doctrine is very "meh" apart from PPSH and HTD for conscripts, no super tank which means that Ost T3 can be very very tough to deal with so it does have to be strong.
22 Jun 2013, 14:27 PM
#3
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1677 | Subs: 2

I'd be happy if you couldn't cap when HTD is active.
22 Jun 2013, 15:00 PM
#4
avatar of Shazz

Posts: 194



Ermmm how can a really good player dodge them?? By retreating? Surely that means you get map control?

I do agree it's strong however, IMO a change should be made so that damage output is reduced while ability is active to something like x0.75 damage dealt which would mean that it's not so powerful when used with hoorah to close the distance.

End of the day though, that doctrine is very "meh" apart from PPSH and HTD for conscripts, no super tank which means that Ost T3 can be very very tough to deal with so it does have to be strong.



The point is that while playing Germans I am forced to dump every single munition I have into rifle/bundled nades to counter this essentially free spammable ability. Even if I force a retreat a few times, I am down munitions and they'll just be back and do it again. It's a downward slope, basically.

I would be happy if (any / all):

- flamers did more damage to HTD
- HTD reduced accuracy / fire rate / reload rate
- HTD had a large-ish window (5 sec?) after activating in which the squad couldn't retreat, so if someone charges and HTDs and gets surprised by a bundle in the face there's a penalty.

I'm not against the core idea of the ability which is to let conscripts hold their ground more effectively - I'm against the absolutely braindead manner in which it is currently implemented.
22 Jun 2013, 15:52 PM
#5
avatar of Azza

Posts: 19

The ability is way too strong at the moment.

Needs to cost muntions. I'm thinking 30.
The accuracy received modifier should be changed to 0.60%, make it a little less effective.
It should protect against suppression for a fair while but eventually the unit should become suppressed and then pinned and loose the benefits of HTD.
HTD should not be use able if the unit is already suppressed or pinned.
If oorah is used there should be a 8 seconds cool down on HTD from the moment oorah is used.
Slight delay on retreat of maybe 2 seconds when the unit has to go back into a standing position before retreating
22 Jun 2013, 15:54 PM
#6
avatar of The Dave

Posts: 396

HTD is dumb and not needed. It -like a lot of the russian abilities, heat seaking 30 mile anti-tank missiles, ram, etc. - doesn't make any sense.

I can understand if they get a bonus behind cover and "hitting the dirt" to evade bullet fire....but out in the open field? With squads standing next to them shooting?
22 Jun 2013, 16:21 PM
#7
avatar of ArmaReborn

Posts: 52

Using HTD should not allow you to retreat, throw molotovs or use AT-nades.
22 Jun 2013, 16:54 PM
#8
avatar of Marcus2389
Developer Relic Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

22 Jun 2013, 17:09 PM
#9
avatar of The Dave

Posts: 396

Wait...

You're serious?

Having to rely on a Vet MG? Is this some Euro-joke because I don't get it.
22 Jun 2013, 17:11 PM
#10
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1939 | Subs: 2

Without HTD conscripts get owned. It needs to be changed in some ways like decreasing Ostwind cost, improving German AC, and disabled capping. But witout it conscripts don't stand a chance because their damage output is pretty bad relative to Grens/PGrens.
22 Jun 2013, 17:30 PM
#11
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 951

Perhaps PPSHs should be non-doctrinal, as a fuel upgrade then?
22 Jun 2013, 17:33 PM
#12
avatar of Marcus2389
Developer Relic Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

Well, in 1vs1 it works wonderfully. If they don't have hit the dirt you simply insta-destroy the full squad with a couple of bursts :)

In the eSports forums we have suggested a couple of solutions to fix hit the dirt anyways, if I remember correctly we suggested Relic to either decrease the damage of conscripts of a value between 10% and 30% when they are in HTD stance or to give them a timer of like 5-10seconds where they cannot retreat, much like the Airborne troops when they throw a satchel, you cannot retreat them for a bunch of seconds.
22 Jun 2013, 17:37 PM
#13
avatar of Ptah

Posts: 66

IMO when the HTD is activated they should get like medium cover, because in reality when you hit the ground you don't get heavier cover than let's say when you are behind wall. The ability would still be good when you are in the open, but it wouldn't be as game changing as now.
22 Jun 2013, 17:40 PM
#14
avatar of Marcus2389
Developer Relic Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

Ah yeah, or to decrease the bonus defense of 30%
24 Jun 2013, 06:37 AM
#15
avatar of suDDen-deAth

Posts: 47

Wait...

You're serious?

Having to rely on a Vet MG? Is this some Euro-joke because I don't get it.


best f*king comment ever :-P
24 Jun 2013, 06:42 AM
#16
avatar of heeroduo

Posts: 144

decrease the damage of conscripts of a value between 10% and 30% when they are in HTD stance or to give them a timer of like 5-10seconds where they cannot retreat.



I think, It's really good idea.
24 Jun 2013, 14:04 PM
#17
avatar of Corp.Shephard

Posts: 359

There's some really odd things about Hit the Dirt that bug me too.

Is the the same armor type as buildings? Sometimes it feels like it.

I started to suspect this when I realized that Conscripts who HTD in a blizzard increase their sight range by like 2-3 times their normal Blizzard sight range.

Just like as if they were in a building.

If they could fix HTD and building armor in one go that'd be great.
24 Jun 2013, 14:37 PM
#18
avatar of Tristan44

Posts: 915

I am a German player and I find absolutely nothing wrong with HtD. Its so vunerable to tanks, flames, and nades. If you see somebody hit the dirt GET BACK and fire rifle nades and throw bundled nades into those "Russian Assholes". I will say when the cons have veterancy and they hit the hit near some PzGrens with no vet, they get absolutely SHREDDED!!! But remember germans, the HtD doctrine has no OP (fire across the entire map or flame entire squads in .56 millisecond) tanks. I prefer somebody going that doctrine, at least it gives me a fighting chance.
25 Jun 2013, 16:35 PM
#19
avatar of ace4sure

Posts: 102

I just looked up the game files what Phospherous Rounds actually do when activated cause I usually try to focus an the MG just as Marcus described.

While my duty at the "Heer" I always got the MG3 (99% the same weapon as the MG42), that's why I am so into that weapon.

But anyways, here are the numbers:
- +9 Penetration (=10)
- 50% Reload (=3sec)
- 200% Damage
- Forces a reload (3sec before able to fire)

The forced reload is a pain but it's worth it!
I usually let it fire a few burst (regular 6sec reload after 5 burst anyway) so the enemy is supressed and then hit the button.

The increased penetration is also great vs Soviet vetted and/or elite infantry, which have higher armor values, cause that bonus is neglected with this ability.

Besides its effectiveness it simply looks amazing! :)

Regards
ace
25 Jun 2013, 20:45 PM
#20
avatar of Marcus2389
Developer Relic Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

That explains a lot ^^
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