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russian armor

Churchills HP (1400-1600) over the top

29 Sep 2015, 04:20 AM
#81
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

Churchill has better acceleration than an M10, as Alex will be quick to tell you. It's a lot more agile than you'd think.


having used them and fought against them i know they're not very agile. they accelerate to top speed pretty fast but top speed doesn't really go anywhere.

if the grenade does indeed (i haven't looked at the files) do 120 damage over 4 then it probably does need to be changed. it may have something to do with the vehicle stun though.
29 Sep 2015, 07:30 AM
#82
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

Churchill has better acceleration than an M10, as Alex will be quick to tell you. It's a lot more agile than you'd think.

Edit:

Let me put it this way. Recently in a 3v3 on La Gleize, I took a single Churchill and ordered it to drive up a Pak 43's cone of fire. It made it all the way to the gun, tossed a nade, wiped the Pak, and reversed back to my FOB without going under half health.
That's really all you need to know right there.



It doesn't matter due to Churchill being a slow tank. Sure, it can reach its top speed fast but it is still a slow tank. Saying Churchill is agile is a big over statement.
29 Sep 2015, 07:35 AM
#83
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1




It doesn't matter due to Churchill being a slow tank. Sure, it can reach its top speed fast but it is still a slow tank. Saying Churchill is agile is a big over statement.


FYI top speed means absolutely nothing in this game because you will almost never reach it on most tanks on most maps. Acceleration is everything because it allows you to make turns, correct pathing issue and whatnot a lot faster.

The Churchill can accelerate to faster than an infantry unit can move in only 1 second, meaning chasing things down without is actually fairly easy. To catch up to a Churchill you need to spend several more seconds accelerating.

There's no real reason to defend this outside of just inexperience.

The Churchill also has a very high rotation speed, so there's that to.
29 Sep 2015, 07:40 AM
#84
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439



FYI top speed means absolutely nothing in this game because you will almost never reach it on most tanks on most maps. Acceleration is everything because it allows you to make turns, correct pathing issue and whatnot a lot faster.



Oh, if it means nothing then technically Churchill should be able to chase or get away from lets say Panther.

Oh wait...




At least be gardening reasonable with your counter arguments.
29 Sep 2015, 07:45 AM
#85
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1




Oh, if it means nothing then technically Churchill should be able to chase or get away from lets say Panther.

Oh wait...




At least be gardening reasonable with your counter arguments.


The amount of time that the Panther will take to accelerate and match the Churchills speed and overcome it is about ~2 seconds and some change. This is also not even touching at the fact why are you chasing a Churchill with a Panther you ponce he's got 2 6 Pounders waiting to slap your ass. Assuming you bounce no shots you will need 67.5 seconds to kill him with an OKW Panther.

I hope this points out to you the issue is you shouldn't get a tank with one of the best acceleration values into the entire game, the best health in the entire game, the ability to throw gammon bombs at people with regular grenade timers and larger AoE, ect all for just 150 fuel.

29 Sep 2015, 07:49 AM
#86
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Due to the higher maximum speed the Panther comes by it, but indeed the 6 pounders will slap your ass with their willies.
29 Sep 2015, 07:56 AM
#87
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439



The amount of time that the Panther will take to accelerate and match the Churchills speed and overcome it is about ~2 seconds and some change. This is also not even touching at the fact why are you chasing a Churchill with a Panther you ponce he's got 2 6 Pounders waiting to slap your ass.

I hope this points out to you the issue is you shouldn't get a tank with one of the best acceleration values into the entire game, the best health in the entire game, the ability to throw gammon bombs at people with regular grenade timers and larger AoE, ect all for just 150 fuel.




Once again because logic is somehow lost on you.

It doesn't matter if Churchill accelerates faster if can only reach a fraction of the speed of a Panther as in this example.

To put it simple: It's like comparing a car that can accelerate rapidly but can only reach 30 mp/h to a car that accelerates a bit slower but can reach 100 mp/h.


For the purpose of this demonstration lets ignore the fact that Panther can basically park in front of Churchill and laugh cos it won't be able to do anything to it.
29 Sep 2015, 09:12 AM
#88
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Relic should break out the target tables and make certain late-game dedicated AT more reliable against them. Panther could kill them in 8 hits instead of 10, while Elefant and Jagdtiger kill in 4 hits instead of 5.
29 Sep 2015, 09:22 AM
#89
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Target tables would do something, since it's really annoying that you have to shoot that many times to kill it
29 Sep 2015, 09:23 AM
#90
avatar of Horasu

Posts: 279

A nerf to its hp seems like the easiest solution, but maybe another option might be available? I think a more interesting thing to do would be, instead of nerfing its hp, maybe nerf its speed some more. Hear me out. It would promote counterplay, a healthy and vital aspect to competitive games. A churchill slower than it already is would promote a whole different sort of playstyle and open up all sorts of different counters which CoH2 would have never seen before. It would mean an overextended churchill would be dead meat. It would take much longer for it to reach the lethal range where it can throw grenades at AT guns. This means AT guns can kite the churchill more easily. A failed offensive with a churchill can spell doom if it can't retreat at the same speed as its support can. Even if you see a churchill, if you can rush it with enough AT, it won't be able to escape like it can currently. And with its hp as its strong point still, it would have reason to exist. Raise fuel to 160 and call it a day.

Or go the easy way and nerf its HP. *shrug*
29 Sep 2015, 09:26 AM
#91
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1




Once again because logic is somehow lost on you.

It doesn't matter if Churchill accelerates faster if can only reach a fraction of the speed of a Panther as in this example.


Good thing it isn't a fraction then.

| | acceleration: 3.5f;
| | deceleration: 3.5f;
| | high_path_look_ahead_max_dist: 25f;
| | on_ice_accel_decel_multiplier: 0.3f;
| | on_ice_overturn_scale: 0.5f;
| | on_land_overturn_scale: 0.1f;
| | orient_to_terrain: true;
| | pass_type: "heavy_crusher";
| | rotation_rate: 32f;
| | rotation_rate_crouch: 870f;
| | rotation_rate_prone: 225f;
| | rotation_rate_stand: 870f;
| | smooth_path: true;
| | speed_max: 4f;


Panther:

| moving_ext: {
| | $REF: "ebpextensions\moving_ext.lua";
| | acceleration: 2.4f;
| | deceleration: 4.5f;
| | high_path_look_ahead_max_dist: 25f;
| | on_ice_accel_decel_multiplier: 0.15f;
| | on_ice_overturn_scale: 3f;
| | on_land_overturn_scale: 0.03f;
| | orient_to_terrain: true;
| | pass_type: "heavy_crusher";
| | rotation_rate: 30f;
| | rotation_rate_crouch: 870f;
| | rotation_rate_prone: 225f;
| | rotation_rate_stand: 870f;
| | smooth_path: true;
| | speed_max: 6.6f;
| | turn_plan: "tank_i";


The Churchill also has it's own special pathing AI as you noticed which makes it much more agile than other tanks because well, Relic just decided to give it more advanced pathing AI.

A Panther moves 2.6 faster, but about as much time accelerating to overcome the Churchill with that speed.

This of course still isn't getting into the fact that using Panthers against Churchill's is really dumb because it will take you over a minute to actually kill the Churchill assuming no bounces at all. And of course the Churchill comes in the same tier as the most powerful and durable engineer (as well as cheapest) unit in the game.

29 Sep 2015, 09:35 AM
#92
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439



Good thing it isn't a fraction then.



So Churchill's acceleration is only 1.1 higher while at the same time being 2.6 slower. Also Panther decelerates much faster which is good for all those accurate "no moving penalty" shots.



Thank you for providing arguments supporting my statement.

29 Sep 2015, 09:50 AM
#93
avatar of gnaggnoyil

Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Sep 2015, 19:49 PMGhostTX

This.

Not to mention Pak walls, Raketen, Shrek blobs and the "standard" fair of tanks.

Axis just isn't used to actually having to "work" at killing a tank, nor the disappointment of expending a crap load of resources trying to kill it only to have it get away.


If your standard churchill can be countered by infantry anti-tanks then it's a L2P issue for you, not to mention AVREs and crocs.:romeoHype:

Futhermore, if you consider the cost and the pop for the standard churchill you'll find no effective counters because you simply need to make too much damage to stop a SINGLE churchill after you are able to penetrate its 270 armor.

Ostheer's Stug III spam is perhaps the most effective way to counter churchills and UKF armor forces, but still it makes Ostheer suffer a lot from countering UKF. And for OKW, UKF armor forces = GG because OKW can not spam any kind of armor. :romeoHype:
29 Sep 2015, 09:51 AM
#94
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952

Also Panther decelerates much faster which is good for all those accurate "no moving penalty" shots.


IIRC the moment you hit the 'Stop' key, vehicles lose their moving accuracy penalty, even while they decelerate.
29 Sep 2015, 09:57 AM
#95
avatar of Maschinengewehr

Posts: 334

Concerning the regular Churchill,

I really don't see what the huge fuss is about. The majority of its cost is basically for an armoured shell with a peashooter on top. Plus attacking it feeds your units some crazy vet, which is something a lot of people conveniently forget to mention. And a Churchill with an engine crit is a dead Churchill 90% of the time as well. It's just a damage sponge, nothing more.

The Croc, well, I'm not entirely sure what to think about how it could be better balanced. I guess a reduction to 1280 HPs could balance it a bit better?
29 Sep 2015, 10:47 AM
#96
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439



IIRC the moment you hit the 'Stop' key, vehicles lose their moving accuracy penalty, even while they decelerate.



I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.
So deceleration value makes tank more responsive because it can stop faster and start to reverse or change the direction and stuff.
29 Sep 2015, 10:54 AM
#97
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Use it into your advantage, but even if it hit's it got a insane amount of bounce possibility
29 Sep 2015, 11:28 AM
#98
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

Considering the game's other "meatshield" tank (the kv1) is still in a state of uselessness, I don't really see churchill surviving the nerf.

As soon as the B4 203mm got nerf the entire doctrine fell out of meta. The british artillery is the weakest of the 5 factions. If su-85+katyusha+b4 can't make the kv-1 useful, the churchill is going to be useless as soon as its hp get nerfed.

the axis faction also have access to 320 damage guns. 1600hp is a necessity against monster like the pak43, elefant, and the jagdtiger. Those guns basically ignore armor with their insanely high penetration value combined with a high burst damage and high dps.
29 Sep 2015, 11:38 AM
#99
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Too much hp is not justifiable
29 Sep 2015, 12:08 PM
#100
avatar of Smaug

Posts: 366

guys the solution is simple

either 1600 hp and 200 armor (so that tanks can penetrate easier)

or 1280 hp and 350 armor. (panther vet2 has 352)

the best of both worlds.. tiger like armor and god like hp is too much imho
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