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russian armor

Su-85

26 Sep 2015, 22:42 PM
#21
avatar of WhySooSerious

Posts: 1248

SU85 is your ideal late game anti tank unit since it deals much more damage than the su76. But I do agree the SU85 needs a mobility buff since the damage part is the only area in which it outclasses the su76. SU76 is an okish late game unit if you can get the vet for it. At least vet 2 so that it will be okish late game.
aaa
26 Sep 2015, 23:11 PM
#22
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486

su 85 too fragile
26 Sep 2015, 23:22 PM
#23
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

Su85 has excellent range and self spotting. Buffing it will OP it real quick. Vet 3 its fire rate is very impressive.
26 Sep 2015, 23:24 PM
#24
avatar of WhySooSerious

Posts: 1248

Su85 has excellent range and self spotting. Buffing it will OP it real quick. Vet 3 its fire rate is very impressive.


Just asking for a simple movement speed and acceleration buff not much :P

P.S. any tank destroyers' vet fire rate is impressive :P
26 Sep 2015, 23:24 PM
#25
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


The SU-76 is definitely overperforming with vet vs vehicles and in the AI department with the free low CD barrage.


I'll say once you add numbers it gets annoying, cause 1 Su76 barraging won't do anything. I'll agree that with vet it scales to late game really well.

The SU-76 scales way too well. It's supposed to be a light tank destroyer, but performs as well as the medium tank destroyers. It should be able to take on P4s, but should start suffering vs Panthers and Tigers.

The result I have been seeing is soviet players spamming them well into the late game which is ridiculous. Imagine if axis players were able spam Pumas and destroy IS-2s, that's pretty much what it's like. If soviet players want something to counter panthers and tigers they should be relying on SU-85s not su-76s.


I wouldn't mind seeing the pen lowered across the board by 20.
I wouldn't compare the Puma to the Su76. Compare it with a Stug which is 10mp/15f more expensive. A bit more maneurable platform, +40 dmg, +160hp, Mgs, -10 range (i think with vet it should gain 5-10), less ±0.8 RoF.
26 Sep 2015, 23:43 PM
#26
avatar of Horasu

Posts: 279

Regarding vet, I think any Soviet player would definitely agree to buffing its vet 0 performance if it means nerfing its vet 2/3 fire rate.
26 Sep 2015, 23:50 PM
#27
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2015, 19:14 PMZyllen


Nothing wrong with it. of course its not the tools for noobs you need to properly support and scout ahead.


Actually you don't, it can spot for itself.

The problem is, it is shadowed by SU-76 which is over performing. SU-76 need Penetration nerf. Although, SU-85 might need a slight penetration buff. But again, SU-76 is too cheap, arrives too soon, and has great penetration.
26 Sep 2015, 23:56 PM
#28
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1888 | Subs: 1

Yup, the issue is Su76 over performing for the cost.


Su85 is a rapid, spammable TD with default maphack ability.


Yeah SU85 sure turns on a dime and you see players spamming them all day in the current meta and narrowing field of vision down to a narrow cone sure is "map-hack" label worthy. :lolol:

On topic, SU-85 is fine for the most part. Only problem is that it needs something to differentiate it a bit more from SU-76 because currently you don't have much incentive to tech ahead for the 85 unless you also want something else from T4 too. Vet 2/3 SU85 is pretty beastly though and would need toned down a bit depending on how the 85 is buffed.
27 Sep 2015, 00:07 AM
#29
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561


I wouldn't mind seeing the pen lowered across the board by 20.
I wouldn't compare the Puma to the Su76. Compare it with a Stug which is 10mp/15f more expensive. A bit more maneurable platform, +40 dmg, +160hp, Mgs, -10 range (i think with vet it should gain 5-10), less ±0.8 RoF.

The SU-76 is meant to be a light tank destroyer, hence why it comes out in a tier with other light vehicles. Which is why it shouldn't scale so well, and why they have a heavier tank destroyer.

The Stug is a medium tank destroyer which is why it's available later with other medium armor. It is ostheers only tank destroyer which is why it's meant to scale vs heavier armor. It is just meant to be cheap in the same way that a T-34 is a cheap medium.

So no they aren't on the same level. One is a light vehicle the other is a medium.
27 Sep 2015, 00:19 AM
#30
avatar of Horasu

Posts: 279


The SU-76 is meant to be a light tank destroyer, hence why it comes out in a tier with other light vehicles. Which is why it shouldn't scale so well, and why they have a heavier tank destroyer.

The Stug is a medium tank destroyer which is why it's available later with other medium armor. It is ostheers only tank destroyer which is why it's meant to scale vs heavier armor. It is just meant to be cheap in the same way that a T-34 is a cheap medium.

So no they aren't on the same level. One is a light vehicle the other is a medium.


I think the SU-76 isn't a light tank destroyer at all, it's a bonafide tank destroyer, just weaker and cheaper than the SU-85. The problem I see is, if it's delegated to its roll as a light TD, then it locks SU out of their actual TD until they tech up to their last tier and purchase their most expensive tank. I feel like that end-of-the-road teching just to get a TD that can fight med tanks would limit SU too much in terms of AT power. Every other faction gets their TDs relatively in the middle of the game. Jackson and Firefly only requires 2 tiers to tech up. JPIV and Stug can be gotten relatively early. Until SU spends 85 + 100 + 120 (over 300) fuel to tech up + purchase their TD, they would only have to rely on their subpar infantry AT and, in a situation where SU-76 is regulated to a light TD, their subpar SU-76 until they are at the end-of-the-end of their teching.

And SU-76 and StuG are definitely 100% comparable to each other. Labelling one a med TD and one a light TD doesn't excuse the med TD nor does it give reason for the light TD to be worse. They are both TDs that can be gotten within minutes of each other, need comparatively the same fuel to tech up to, and generally cost the same. That makes them comparable in every sense of the word. And like the person you quoted said, the StuG is miles and away better than the SU-76 for only 15 more fuel.

Also, what is even a "light TD"? Who would buy a TD that could only fight light vehicles and bother medium armor? What role would it even serve? It would be garbage again if you want it to only fight light vehicles. Honestly, the very notion makes me balk.

That's why I feel like SU-76 needs to be as capable as it is now. It already dies in 3 hits. It already does 40 less dmg than other TDs. Those are its weaknesses.
27 Sep 2015, 00:21 AM
#31
avatar of Sully

Posts: 390 | Subs: 2

SU-85 is fine. It's simply that the SU-76 outshines it.
aaa
27 Sep 2015, 00:21 AM
#32
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486

compared to OKW's corresponding unit su85 sucks ass in both quality and time of arrival
27 Sep 2015, 00:46 AM
#33
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 967

The problem is you need to build t3 before t4, so as the axis tanks come out fast (especially in 4vs4) you need something to face it = you build the versatile Su76.

Then with the pressure the axis putting on you,you can't afford the time and fuel to build t4 and Su85. So you keep building Su76...

To solve this i would lower the cost of T4 a bit to make it more attractive and achievable and 4vs4.
27 Sep 2015, 01:02 AM
#34
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2015, 00:19 AMHorasu


I think the SU-76 isn't a light tank destroyer at all, it's a bonafide tank destroyer, just weaker and cheaper than the SU-85. The problem I see is, if it's delegated to its roll as a light TD, then it locks SU out of their actual TD until they tech up to their last tier and purchase their most expensive tank. I feel like that end-of-the-road teching just to get a TD that can fight med tanks would limit SU too much in terms of AT power. Every other faction gets their TDs relatively in the middle of the game. Jackson and Firefly only requires 2 tiers to tech up. JPIV and Stug can be gotten relatively early. Until SU spends 85 + 100 + 120 (over 300) fuel to tech up + purchase their TD, they would only have to rely on their subpar infantry AT and, in a situation where SU-76 is regulated to a light TD, their subpar SU-76 until they are at the end-of-the-end of their teching.

And SU-76 and StuG are definitely 100% comparable to each other. Labelling one a med TD and one a light TD doesn't excuse the med TD nor does it give reason for the light TD to be worse. They are both TDs that can be gotten within minutes of each other, need comparatively the same fuel to tech up to, and generally cost the same. That makes them comparable in every sense of the word. And like the person you quoted said, the StuG is miles and away better than the SU-76 for only 15 more fuel.

Also, what is even a "light TD"? Who would buy a TD that could only fight light vehicles and bother medium armor? What role would it even serve? It would be garbage again if you want it to only fight light vehicles. Honestly, the very notion makes me balk.

That's why I feel like SU-76 needs to be as capable as it is now. It already dies in 3 hits. It already does 40 less dmg than other TDs. Those are its weaknesses.
What the hell is with that terrible assumption that I said it shouldn't be able to fight medium armor. I posted earlier where I literally said it should be good against all medium armor.

And yes a soviet player who doesn't tech up to their final tier should be penalized when fighting heavier armor like the panther and Tiger. They shouldn't be able to just spend all game in their light vehicle phase. SU-76 is a light vehicle, period. It comes out in a light vehicle tier and needs significantly less resources to reach then other medium vehicles. Stop acting as if soviet T4 is some late game tech. You know who else needs to tech to their final tier and purchase their most expensive tank to get a good tank destroyer. Every other allied faction!
27 Sep 2015, 01:05 AM
#35
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

The problem is you need to build t3 before t4, so as the axis tanks come out fast (especially in 4vs4) you need something to face it = you build the versatile Su76.

Then with the pressure the axis putting on you,you can't afford the time and fuel to build t4 and Su85. So you keep building Su76...

To solve this i would lower the cost of T4 a bit to make it more attractive and achievable and 4vs4.
Last time I checked I think soviets had pretty much the same fuel cost to reach T4 as every other faction that isn't OKW, but the manpower cost was more expensive. I'd lower that first.

Su-76 is very necessary to take on P4s and ostwind, especially when using T1 and not having an AT gun.
27 Sep 2015, 01:11 AM
#36
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100

After the latest patch you can go both T1 and T2 almost instantly.
27 Sep 2015, 01:15 AM
#37
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100



Yeah SU85 sure turns on a dime and you see players spamming them all day in the current meta
3x ZiS (add a Su76 if you feel lavish) stal till KV8>IS2 is the meta. It's been like that since 2013.
27 Sep 2015, 01:49 AM
#38
avatar of mycalliope

Posts: 721

27 Sep 2015, 01:53 AM
#39
avatar of Flying Dustbin

Posts: 270 | Subs: 1

SU-76 is a light vehicle, period.


How come it uses the medium vehicle camo patterns then?:snfPeter:
27 Sep 2015, 02:54 AM
#40
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

3x ZiS (add a Su76 if you feel lavish) stal till KV8>IS2 is the meta. It's been like that since 2013.


Check your sarcasm detector.
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