Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7
Well whatever, enjoy your awesome LT that runs in open doors while your opponent fields vehicles.
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None of these truly help the USF major issues, it would end up being just a crutch, similar to a few patches ago where Ostheer had to just sit and hold and wait for Tigers and Stug Es and hope it would do something when they had all these other issues. And in smaller games the Pershing won't have that many units to support as that's where all the fuel would be going and it'd come late like the other heavy tanks where you'd have either multiple mediums trying to roll over your army unless you invested in your own vehicles that would delay a possible call-in further.
And as I said, Pershing won't be game-changing given that Axis can already deal with IS-2s with their own arsenal of things such as Jagdpanzers, Stugs, multiple ATGs, and their AT in general.
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Posts: 392
None of these truly help the USF major issues, it would end up being just a crutch, similar to a few patches ago where Ostheer had to just sit and hold and wait for Tigers and Stug Es and hope it would do something when they had all these other issues. And in smaller games the Pershing won't have that many units to support as that's where all the fuel would be going and it'd come late like the other heavy tanks where you'd have either multiple mediums trying to roll over your army unless you invested in your own vehicles that would delay a possible call-in further.
And as I said, Pershing won't be game-changing given that Axis can already deal with IS-2s with their own arsenal of things such as Jagdpanzers, Stugs, multiple ATGs, and their AT in general.
Things USF Needs for its Core
-Riflemen Veterancy:
-Make the accuracy bonus to their weapons that they receive the same as the other faction: 40%. Possibly split it between vet 2-3.
-Received Accuracy bonus to 27-28% from 23%. Possibly split between vet 2-3 if accuracy bonus was also split.
-Bazooka:
-Decrease price to 50 munitions to allow it to be more available as a soft counter/deterant to vehicles.
-increase its accuracy at range to make it more reliable at chipping health.
-Maybe make its penetration flat so not drop-off at range to make it more consistent.
-.50cal: -Increase .50cal penetration from 3.0/2.0/1.0 to 4.5/3.0/2.5, would allow the USF LT tier to have a soft counter to light armour when supported with rifle AT grenades.
-Fix issues/bugs with .50cal such as the overpriced crew, gun health/armour and its vet 2 weapon not having the same bonuses that all MGs got in the June/July patch which Cruzz has stated. Removed received accuracy penalty on the crew.
-Maybe drop cost to 260.
Ambulance: Lowers is population cap from 4 to 2. Yes it can reinforce, but the moment it steps out of the base it's at risk of being on shotted by everything.
-Give it a slow passive healing ability when in the base sector and stationary.
Pack Howitzer: Increase the number of shells on all barrages to make these better at area denial. -Standard HE and WP is 6 rounds, no longer losses standard HE from vet.
-HEAT fires 4 rounds.
-Remove cost on WP to give more incentive on using it over the regular barrage.
57mm ATG:
-Increase its base penetration to 165/150/135 to make it more reliable vs mediums.
-Possibly move to T1 and require any officer.
Major: Major model population from 3 to 1. Makes the whole squad only 3 pop cap.
-Revamp his barrage ability and fix the timer on the drop-time between shells that is currently inversed. Make it have a long cooldown and shorter range a tad, but make it much cheaper/free. Not effective, but it would give more incentive to push him forth and be the heavy indirect-fire unit the USF lacks to force weapon teams to move without mass smoke and be an interesting take on artillery.
Tank .50cals: Cost dropped to 50-60 munitions form the hefty 70.
Add a Mortar:
-Fast rate of fire, good accuracy, access to smoke, lower OHK radius compared to other mortars and less range that is meant to operate right behind the rifles and give them the fire support they need and force weapon teams to move if not from damage, then from sheer ROF.
-Found in T0
Lieutenant: Change to a long-range combat support unit (Modified M1 Garand profile similar to Pathfinder rather than a BAR) with various abilities rather than Riflemen 1.25 like possible auras similar to the artillery officer. Would help him later in the game in toughening nearby USF units while making him not this shock unit that would be followed up by various light armour.
-Starts at four man to emphasize support role. Goes back to five at vet 2-3.
M20:
-Manpower from 340 to 260/280 to reduce that hefty MP price.
AA HT:
-Similar to M20, lower its MP cost to 300 from 360(?). It already pays by having a high fuel cost.
The USF current tank/Major(except the Major himself) tier is actually fine I would say. They all do their jobs as intended, but don't have exactly the strongest core backing them up and in the end. Pershing and Calliope would just be fun toys USF could play with, but are not necessary to win. Ostheer doesn't need Tiger or Panthers to win, Soviets don't need IS-2s and OKW doesn't need KTs so USF shouldn't need a Pershing to rely entirely upon. It's the main core units that should be holding them up.
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Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
And what make you suppose a M26 would have 200 pen?
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
It shares gun with M36.
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Posts: 764
It's not about fixing anyting. It's about late game AT options.
Units with pen 200 or higher:
Wehrmacht: Pak40, Pak43 Stug G, Tiger, Panther, Elephant.
OKW: Raketen, Pak43, JP IV, Panther, Command Panther, Sturmtiger, King Tiger, Jadgtiger.
SU: ZiS-3, SU-76, SU-85, KV-2, IS-2, ISU-152.
USF: Jackson
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Posts: 392
If your overall units are performing better, you'll get less issues to deal with late game. Pershing won't help you if the rest of your army get blasted before it hits the field. Calliope is another debate.
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Posts: 90
And now let's make a list with non-doctrinal units that can achieve 200 pen or higher:
OST: Pak 40 Stug G Panther
OKW:Raketen JP IV Panther King tiger
SOV:ZiS-3 SU-76
USF: Jackson
1 Posts: 764
Fixed for you are you said NON-DOCTRINAL units. Dunno Zis 3 and pak 40 were doctrinal
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21
None of these truly help the USF major issues, it would end up being just a crutch, similar to a few patches ago where Ostheer had to just sit and hold and wait for Tigers and Stug Es and hope it would do something when they had all these other issues. And in smaller games the Pershing won't have that many units to support as that's where all the fuel would be going and it'd come late like the other heavy tanks where you'd have either multiple mediums trying to roll over your army unless you invested in your own vehicles that would delay a possible call-in further.
And as I said, Pershing won't be game-changing given that Axis can already deal with IS-2s with their own arsenal of things such as Jagdpanzers, Stugs, multiple ATGs, and their AT in general.
Agreed slightly.(I still think having a Pershing Doc would be cool.
Things USF Needs for its Core
-Riflemen Veterancy:
-Make the accuracy bonus to their weapons that they receive the same as the other faction: 40%. Possibly split it between vet 2-3.
-Received Accuracy bonus to 27-28% from 23%. Possibly split between vet 2-3 if accuracy bonus was also split.
Agreed
-Bazooka:
-Decrease price to 50 munitions to allow it to be more available as a soft counter/deterant to vehicles.
-increase its accuracy at range to make it more reliable at chipping health.
-Maybe make its penetration flat so not drop-off at range to make it more consistent.
Agreed slightly
-.50cal: -Increase .50cal penetration from 3.0/2.0/1.0 to 4.5/3.0/2.5, would allow the USF LT tier to have a soft counter to light armour when supported with rifle AT grenades.
-Fix issues/bugs with .50cal such as the overpriced crew, gun health/armour and its vet 2 weapon not having the same bonuses that all MGs got in the June/July patch which Cruzz has stated. Removed received accuracy penalty on the crew.
-Maybe drop cost to 260.
Agreed slightly.
Ambulance: Lowers is population cap from 4 to 2. Yes it can reinforce, but the moment it steps out of the base it's at risk of being on shotted by everything.
-Give it a slow passive healing ability when in the base sector and stationary.
I disagree as the ambulance while susceptible to fire gives a huge adv by serving as a forward reinforce point with the major lockdown.
Pack Howitzer: Increase the number of shells on all barrages to make these better at area denial. -Standard HE and WP is 6 rounds, no longer losses standard HE from vet.
-HEAT fires 4 rounds.
-Remove cost on WP to give more incentive on using it over the regular barrage.
Agree slightly.
57mm ATG:
-Increase its base penetration to 165/150/135 to make it more reliable vs mediums.
-Possibly move to T1 and require any officer.
Agree with the T1 suggestion only(the problem with the AT gun isn't penetration(as the cheap 30 muni ap rounds + take aim ability can be devastatingly effective, it's the received accuracy making it one of the easiest AT-guns to de-crew.)
Major: Major model population from 3 to 1. Makes the whole squad only 3 pop cap.
-Revamp his barrage ability and fix the timer on the drop-time between shells that is currently inversed. Make it have a long cooldown and shorter range a tad, but make it much cheaper/free. Not effective, but it would give more incentive to push him forth and be the heavy indirect-fire unit the USF lacks to force weapon teams to move without mass smoke and be an interesting take on artillery.
Agreed.
Tank .50cals: Cost dropped to 50-60 munitions form the hefty 70.
Agreed slightly.
Add a Mortar:
-Fast rate of fire, good accuracy, access to smoke, lower OHK radius compared to other mortars and less range that is meant to operate right behind the rifles and give them the fire support they need and force weapon teams to move if not from damage, then from sheer ROF.
-Found in T0
Strongly agree.
Lieutenant: Change to a long-range combat support unit (Modified M1 Garand profile similar to Pathfinder rather than a BAR) with various abilities rather than Riflemen 1.25 like possible auras similar to the artillery officer. Would help him later in the game in toughening nearby USF units while making him not this shock unit that would be followed up by various light armour.
-Starts at four man to emphasize support role. Goes back to five at vet 2-3.
Agreed.
M20:
-Manpower from 340 to 260/280 to reduce that hefty MP price.
Heavily Disagree(The M20 is a shock unit and can be produced considerably quickly with only one fuel point captured, I have seen these things come out around the 4 minute mark and that can be devasting vs Ost/OKW as it'll still take them 1-2 minutes to get t2 or considerable AT out to counter it) Heck I'd even suggest adding 5 fuel to the M20.
AA HT:
-Similar to M20, lower its MP cost to 300 from 360(?). It already pays by having a high fuel cost.
Agreed.
The USF current tank/Major(except the Major himself) tier is actually fine I would say. They all do their jobs as intended, but don't have exactly the strongest core backing them up and in the end. Pershing and Calliope would just be fun toys USF could play with, but are not necessary to win. Ostheer doesn't need Tiger or Panthers to win, Soviets don't need IS-2s and OKW doesn't need KTs so USF shouldn't need a Pershing to rely entirely upon. It's the main core units that should be holding them up.
Slightly agree(I still have doubts on t4 effectiveness).
1 Posts: 764
As US Forces there is only Jackson, and since the first minute, you know that you will see them at some point in front of your JP/Panther/Tiger.
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Posts: 545
And now let's make a list with non-doctrinal units that can achieve 300 pen or higher:
OST:
OKW:
SOV:
USF: Jackson
I really like those lists, they just take everything out of context, and completely ignore faction design & gameflow.
It's not about late game AT options, it's about giving USF a break from baby sitting. Throwing in some doctrinal "heavy" tank won't solve anything.
A Pershing won't solve you investing quite some apm into basic tasks (which is a lot for lower skill ranges - the majority of players), it won't solve your bleed, it won't solve repetitive tasks you have to do, and it won't solve certain weak commanders. Just gonna add another unit that's either useless or borderline OP, while the overall faction is still a mix of fun and... frustration.
USF AT is awesome btw., but it's tough to use them with their full potential.
Well, just my 2 cents... adding some Heavy won't solve anything.
1 Posts: 764
Yo buddy, doctrinal or not SturmTiger 1000 pen is nutz. Yolo. That original list said a lot your just trying to derail it with the non doctrinal part. 1 unit with good pen is insufficient for USF. Unless you like P47 picks every game.
3 Posts: 545
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
It was to make a point, that you can always use some random value and start comparing in terms of "the grass is greener on the other side".
As you say yourself now: many commanders, many units, and flexibility. One game you will face Sherman spam, but next time you will fight against Jacksons, M10s, or a bunch of ATs - you see where this goes?
USF has flexibility, it just isn't easy to use, not really apparent, and certainly quite frustrating to use sometimes.
That's two different factions you're facing there, one unit is doctrinal, and none of these are an issue for USF.
With current meta it feels like i see M10s more often than Jacksons. E8 just doesn't have a good trade off anymore.
So how would a Pershing help the faction AT wise? So you can fight a Panther with your own "Panther"?
That's it? Fine, add the damn thing... late game gonna be the same though.
(my point being: nice to have thing, not necessary, and certainly no real help with the faction overall)
edit: miragefla has some nice ideas there, but that should be another topic IMO
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
The list defined units with high pen, which goes to the point of what USF lacks. So it's defined for a purpose, I don't feel Pershing is the exclusive answer myself, still would be A welcome addition. But moreover changes to existing units Manley the AT gun and Bazooka might help more long term.
Well, but we can agree that M10s, 57mm and Shermans will fail against Tiger Ace, or KT+JT combo. You can't outrange them, you have low chance to pen front armor, you can't flank (beacause of map or because of mines/paks/shcrecks and even if you do, there is high chance you will lose your M10s while KT will survive with almost no health.
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