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Ostheer's Panzer IV vs Sherman/T34 Costs

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5 May 2015, 17:34 PM
#41
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4



Yes, but that is what makes it a Balance post, bcs the OP has put thought into it and tried to establish an argument, based on figures.

It may be, of course, that the argument is flawed, but that is not for me to judge.


I was just frustrated at the time because these are discussions that people have been having, i'm sure at least during the private WFA alpha, and the OP presented a busted, one legged argument as though he'd uncovered the lost ark.
5 May 2015, 17:41 PM
#42
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9



I was just frustrated at the time because these are discussions that people have been having, i'm sure at least during the private WFA alpha, and the OP presented a busted, one legged argument as though he'd uncovered the lost ark.


I sympathise :)

If the stuff is obviously wrong,, or ill-thought out, or attention-seeking, I move it elsewhere.

EDIT: I should have added there are two posters here, with roughly the same names...

5 May 2015, 17:46 PM
#43
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1


More Stuff


Hmmm...

What you say makes me think. It need a lot of testing, because yes, if you have well-scaled T3 units along with call-ins, it's gonna screw things up. Needs a lot of testing.

About Whermact, I 100% agree with you. You can't over-extend, you lose map control, and a single wipe might cost you the whole game. There is no room for error, Ostheer needs better early game map control options.
5 May 2015, 19:33 PM
#44
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4



I sympathise :)

If the stuff is obviously wrong,, or ill-thought out, or attention-seeking, I move it elsewhere.

EDIT: I should have added there are two posters here, with roughly the same names...



Ahh, no I feel a little ashamed. I mean, really I should of come up with a robust counter argument instead of just sneering.
5 May 2015, 21:09 PM
#45
avatar of Swift

Posts: 2723 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 May 2015, 17:46 PMRMMLz

About Whermact, I 100% agree with you. You can't over-extend, you lose map control, and a single wipe might cost you the whole game. There is no room for error, Ostheer needs better early game map control options.

Which is why I said that the problem is not in the actual teching cost but how the faction fares in the early game. Too many mistakes accumulated can see the game spiral out of control and then the Panzer IV, if it comes, will come too late.
6 May 2015, 05:02 AM
#46
avatar of iceman

Posts: 148

jump backJump back to quoted post5 May 2015, 21:09 PMSwift

Which is why I said that the problem is not in the actual teching cost but how the faction fares in the early game. Too many mistakes accumulated can see the game spiral out of control and then the Panzer IV, if it comes, will come too late.


that is an assumption...
6 May 2015, 07:15 AM
#47
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1



Advantages so statistically marginal it may as well be a rounding error. PiV misses the first shot, you win. PiV gets a rear armour hit first, they win. etc. etc. In the grander context Shermans can be replaced, and aren't as big a loss as often as your only PiV will be; again due to the numbers already cited in the thread. There's a lot more implied equity at stake with the PiV, way too much to be psyched about going into a coinflip of a tank duel.


Replace the word PzIV by T34 or Sherman and you're going to the same argumentation with a worst result.
PzIV is the best of the 3 tanks and it has the best veterancy. it also has the best survivability vs other T4 tank destroyers, SU85 and M36. A sherman alone or a T34 alone cannot do anything vs a panther.

Now it doesn't outclass completely his fellow but it arrives at the right time to support your pak vs the sherman and the T34 + shreck and faust.
6 May 2015, 20:50 PM
#48
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post6 May 2015, 07:15 AMEsxile


Replace the word PzIV by T34 or Sherman and you're going to the same argumentation with a worst result.
PzIV is the best of the 3 tanks and it has the best veterancy. it also has the best survivability vs other T4 tank destroyers, SU85 and M36.

A sherman alone or a T34 alone cannot do anything vs a panther.

Now it doesn't outclass completely his fellow but it arrives at the right time to support your pak vs the sherman and the T34 + shreck and faust.


This is my point regarding the thrust of the threads argument. That T3 for the soviets currently serves as a bridge when it arrives. People don't counter T3 or > with T3. Bigger scarier things arrive, in order to counter T3, which for the soviets whether we agree with it or not, is call-in armor. That's just the current flow of the game, and perhaps may also have its roots in how upkeep is calculated.
6 May 2015, 20:54 PM
#49
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

yeah, t3 is solely used to try and take a mid game advantage and if it is unable to it's a huge liability. the soviet t3 has a disadvantage against OKH t3 and against OKW t1 and t2 vehicles (although puma depends on player skill and map). against OKH t4 and OKW t3/VI B the soviet t3 is a huge liability without a massive numbers advantage.
6 May 2015, 22:41 PM
#50
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

I miss Wehrmacht having an AI puma in their T3. The Ostwind's just too expensive and too fragile to be such an all-in choice. Upgunning the puma to have the AT capabilities was then the soft/desperate counter to armor. The Ostwind has no options for any kind of enemy armor.

But then there's the upgunned 222 that is in T2 that apparently is trying to fill that role, but has to remain weak enough to be justified.

Trying to theorize how to balance CoH2's factions feels is such a hamstrung exercise. CoH1 did so much right that it's hard for CoH2 to be different AND superior (or even equitable) at the same time.
6 May 2015, 23:49 PM
#51
avatar of ZeaviS

Posts: 160

Well in terms of the 1v1 matchup between P4s and sherman/t34, they are pretty close to each other. It usually comes down to rng or who hits first. It's really the vet bonuses and performance vs infantry that set them apart.
8 May 2015, 21:32 PM
#52
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500

jump backJump back to quoted post5 May 2015, 07:26 AMRMMLz


I'm with you on Teching, but how does PzIV beats Sherman in AI?


Well I've read the argument that the PzIV wont be caught with it's pants down due to the Sherman having two shells and I think that's a legit argument. But this is only a certain scenario, hence the term 'arguably'
8 May 2015, 22:10 PM
#53
avatar of Justin xv

Posts: 255

Fuel.

It's called fuel.

But yes, this sounds like a fair enough argument.

The thing is with Soviet and US upgrades like Field Hospital, Ambulance, AT nades, standard grenades, BAR, Molotov, is these mentioned things are always a must before going for armor.

As Ostheer doesn't need to pay MP for their upgrades or snare abilities. So 9/10 times the gap in between armor costs is minimized more so than your original numbers.

9 May 2015, 04:41 AM
#54
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
Fuel.

It's called fuel.

But yes, this sounds like a fair enough argument.

The thing is with Soviet and US upgrades like Field Hospital, Ambulance, AT nades, standard grenades, BAR, Molotov, is these mentioned things are always a must before going for armor.

As Ostheer doesn't need to pay MP for their upgrades or snare abilities. So 9/10 times the gap in between armor costs is minimized more so than your original numbers.


LOl yet ostheer is the most manpower starved faction in the game. USF and soviets pay the least in teching so their upgrade costs aren't even a big deal, especially soviets, usf get free squads and have no need to build structures. That why you never see ostheer having vehicles or tanks before allies unless you suck.
9 May 2015, 05:25 AM
#55
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned

LOl yet ostheer is the most manpower starved faction in the game. USF and soviets pay the least in teching so their upgrade costs aren't even a big deal, especially soviets, usf get free squads and have no need to build structures. That why you never see ostheer having vehicles or tanks before allies unless you suck.


OKW has cheapest tech...

p4 comes around the same time as the first Sherman or t34
9 May 2015, 05:46 AM
#56
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned


OKW has cheapest tech...

p4 comes around the same time as the first Sherman or t34

Soviets only build one tier structure and solely rely on call ins. Even if they built their second they total out at only 400 manpower 160-170 fuel?. The cheapest of any faction. But speaking strictly in terms of meta, its usually only 160 manpower 40-50 fuel for t1 or t2 giving them relative ease of buying AT nades molotovs medics, extra squads. P4s come around 1-2 minutes after shermans t34s. Because the cumulative fuel and manpower costs for osts are higher, for both teching and unit price. 10-11 minute shermans aren't technically a rare occurence, even when an m20 is purchased, can you really say the same thing about the p4? Please do a little research before auto jumping on the axis are always equal or better/allies have no advantage train.
9 May 2015, 08:10 AM
#57
avatar of carloff

Posts: 301

jump backJump back to quoted post5 May 2015, 02:26 AMiceman
Dear Relic,
In just performing a light analysis ...

This analysis at the /b/ level.

Ostheer:
1 - Infanerie Kompanie
2 - Battle Phase 1
3 - Battle Phase 2 -
3 - Support Amor K
4 - Panzer IV Medium Tank
5 - Totals - Man Power - 1000 Gas - 260

Note: If you include needing pak guns then you need to also add the
Leichte Mech. Kompanie
Man Power - 120 Gas - 15

You forget to add medical bunker or you want to play without heal?

So, total would be Man Power - 1120 Gas - 275
1270 mp 275 fuel

Soviets:

1 - Special Rifle Command or Support Weapon Kampaneya
2 - Tankkoviy Battalion Command
3 - T34 Medium tank
4 - Totals Man Power - 710 Gas - 270

Same here + 250 mp for medics and 250 mp and 50 fuel for nades-molotovs. Do you mention what Ost get all nades for free? Nope. And soviets always bleed mp couse of they crappy unfantry units and Ost have lot of tools to make them bleed even more(upgraded MG42, turbo mortar, Rnade). Try to count cost of reinforce 5 of 6 scripts and 3 of 4 grens, just for lulz. Did you try to wipe with Rnade? Did you try to wipe with Molotov?And if add only medics and 1 type of Nade(many players don't go for Molotovs, couse it suck hard)?
1085 mp 295 fuel or 1210 mp 320 fuel(both nades).


USA:
1 - Active Platoon Command Post
2 - Active Battalion Command Post
3 - M4A3 Sherman
4 - Totals

Medics 250-10, nades 150-25,
1180 mp and 285 fuel.


In addition, this is strictly a build to get a PIV medium tank, and does not include upgrades or builds for ANYTHING else.

I lol'ed. Are you playing against easy AI? You can't take strickly build without ignoring cost of grades, couse YOU need them to get your army works. Still you adding LMC for Paks, but don't include same for others >> :)
9 May 2015, 08:48 AM
#58
avatar of some one

Posts: 935

Tier 3 Soviets should be cheaper
9 May 2015, 10:04 AM
#59
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8


LOl yet ostheer is the most manpower starved faction in the game. USF and soviets pay the least in teching so their upgrade costs aren't even a big deal, especially soviets, usf get free squads and have no need to build structures. That why you never see ostheer having vehicles or tanks before allies unless you suck.


Actually, most menpower starved are USF. I can't remind myself a single game where I haven't seen 200-300 fuel float because mp bleed prevents me(or whoever I watch that isn't stomping his opponent) from getting armor.
Ost only have most menpower intense teching, but they aren't most mp starved.
9 May 2015, 10:31 AM
#60
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 609

Tier 3 Soviets should be cheaper

Hell no !!!!

This would simply result in an even faster T70, which simply isn't needed given the current balance. Most players would just abuse T70 and if they didn't win the game with the T70 simply move on to callins anyway. Hardly redefining the meta.

Cheaper T34 maybe.
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