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9 Feb 2014, 04:34 AM
#161
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 892

Game got problem i think we all can agree on and there is no need to be hatin on ami for feeling that way. However it looks to me a bit naive to start a ambitous tournament to a small game community and a new one at that and expect there to be thousands of viewers. I mean look at day9 for example.. he had 100+ shows before it took off and did a show almost everyday.

Most casters now seem to be leaving and the worst part is its like they see sc2 and lol casters and get jealous and thinks the grass is greener on the other side. The most successful sc2 casters casted broodwar for years (for free basicly) before they started sc2 beta casting and slowly built up viewer numbers but these coh2 caster seems to want success now.
9 Feb 2014, 04:37 AM
#162
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1445 | Subs: 4

I got the numbers from a pretty reliable source, I still don't see why he would need $5,000 to do something that he claims to be doing for the benefit of the community and game that he loves. Sure it takes a ton of time but it isn't like he's traveling around the world/staying in hotels/eating out etc etc like casters for major games do during big tournaments. Aside from his time and a little bit of electricity what other expenses are there?

Why does it offend you so much that "average" vCoH players are succeeding in CoH2? That in no way means that CoH2 takes more skill or that vCoH has a high skill ceiling blah blah whatever. It just means that the games are different (newsflash! they are!) and that a different skill set is required. Same thing happened with SC2. Some of the BW pros were bad at SC2, some weren't. That's just life. Trying to say that CoH2 takes no skill because people that were good at a different game aren't good at it is a huge failure of logic. Oh, I don't see you tearing up the tournies in CoH2, or the ladder, or anything for that matter.

5 people running a website isn't a monarchy xD, 5 people running anything isn't a monarchy, I don't even know why I'm taking the bad troll bait on this one... fail sentence is fail.

Other people have given the game a chance, didn't like it and moved on. That's fine. Not everyone is going to enjoy the game, not everyone enjoys any game or anything but at least they have enough maturity to have moved on with their lives. And at least Inverse has the ability to coherently express his opinions on what he doesn't like. Sure people outside of Reborn don't like the game, but it is mainly the Reborn people I see on a daily basis talking about how bad CoH2 is/how it takes no skill etc etc and yet none of them are good (or simply don't play) at CoH2 =/ but still pretend to know something.
9 Feb 2014, 05:05 AM
#163
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1935 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Feb 2014, 04:37 AMCieZ
Why does it offend you so much that "average" vCoH players are succeeding in CoH2? That in no way means that CoH2 takes more skill or that vCoH has a high skill ceiling blah blah whatever. It just means that the games are different (newsflash! they are!) and that a different skill set is required. Same thing happened with SC2. Some of the BW pros were bad at SC2, some weren't. That's just life. Trying to say that CoH2 takes no skill because people that were good at a different game aren't good at it is a huge failure of logic. Oh, I don't see you tearing up the tournies in CoH2, or the ladder, or anything for that matter.

What difference is there in skill set? Its basically the same thing, control map, vet up units, tech, attack, control VPs. The only difference is that the strategic depth is pretty shallow in comparison, RNG is more prominent, flanking is less rewarding, and you have to pay money to get most of the doctrines that the diehard coh2 fans are using.

Other people have given the game a chance, didn't like it and moved on. That's fine. Not everyone is going to enjoy the game, not everyone enjoys any game or anything but at least they have enough maturity to have moved on with their lives. And at least Inverse has the ability to coherently express his opinions on what he doesn't like. Sure people outside of Reborn don't like the game, but it is mainly the Reborn people I see on a daily basis talking about how bad CoH2 is/how it takes no skill etc etc and yet none of them are good (or simply don't play) at CoH2 =/ but still pretend to know something.

A) I have given the game a chance, I've played it about 300 hours (500+ according to steam but a good portion of that was spent AFK in the menu).
B) I remember a month or so ago I linked you to all the threads where I gave constructive feedback on the gameplay. The vast majority of my "bashing" on the game has been directed at the DLC model and the terrible optimization. Simply saying that the skill cap is lower is not bashing, most the other games I've been playing lately also have a low skill cap.
C) The only people from Reborn that post here regularly are Ami, Budwise, Whiteflash, and myself. We've all give our fair share of constructive feedback.
D) Me and Hissy played a lot of Soviet 2v2 back when Ostheer was insanely overpowered in team games (invincible FHT death machine, unpenetrable Panthers, P4 spam pwnage, strafe spam galore, etc) and we lost maybe 5-7 out of the ~75 games we played, so yeah we were pretty decent back when we were interested in the game.
9 Feb 2014, 05:32 AM
#164
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1445 | Subs: 4


D) Me and Hissy played a lot of Soviet 2v2 back when Ostheer was insanely overpowered in team games (invincible FHT death machine, unpenetrable Panthers, P4 spam pwnage, strafe spam galore, etc) and we lost maybe 5-7 out of the ~75 games we played, so yeah we were pretty decent back when we were interested in the game.


You mean the same period of time where flamer M3s were instant win? Or when Soviet snipers fired fast as hell? Or when SU85s could drive backwards faster with focused sight than they can drive backwards without it now? Let alone the other multitude of nerfs that SU85s have received.

Also we can't forget PPShs being absurdly broken (well more like bugged but you get the point). And HtD stacked with green cover, and ram would 100% penetrate any tank, and T70s could smush infantry... I mean the list just goes on.

Really must have taken absurd amounts of skill to win as Soviet during that time. *rolls eyes*

If CoH2 doesn't take much skill and is so full of RNG then why do all the top ladder players have very impressive win/loss ratios as well as consistently perform in tournaments? The game takes plenty of skill...

edit: This is getting very off-topic though, we should get back to the thread at hand.
9 Feb 2014, 07:43 AM
#165
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1935 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Feb 2014, 05:32 AMCieZ


You mean the same period of time where flamer M3s were instant win? Or when Soviet snipers fired fast as hell? Or when SU85s could drive backwards faster with focused sight than they can drive backwards without it now? Let alone the other multitude of nerfs that SU85s have received.

Also we can't forget PPShs being absurdly broken (well more like bugged but you get the point). And HtD stacked with green cover, and ram would 100% penetrate any tank, and T70s could smush infantry... I mean the list just goes on.

Really must have taken absurd amounts of skill to win as Soviet during that time. *rolls eyes*

If CoH2 doesn't take much skill and is so full of RNG then why do all the top ladder players have very impressive win/loss ratios as well as consistently perform in tournaments? The game takes plenty of skill...

edit: This is getting very off-topic though, we should get back to the thread at hand.

A) We stopped using M3 after the first 5 games or so because because it was so broken and we wanted a strat that would be viable after it got hit with the inevitable nerf hammer
B) We very rarely used PPSH and went double Guard Motor in the vast majority of the games.
C) SU85s were a great P4 killer but at that point in time Panthers bounced almost everything that wasn't a rear armor hit
D) Yes, they were really hard at that time unless you were spamming HTD in 1v1. Ostheer rolled team games back in June and early July.
E) T70 was rarely used at that time, it didn't become popular until the scatter reduction which happened in late July or early August
F) T34/76s died really fast because that was when they got two-shotted by Paks and Stugs were actually really strong
G) You are right, the list does go on and on with cheesy tactics units and abilities which is why the game isn't that compelling to a large number of former competitive players. You can't say "but you were probably abusing this and that" and then turn around and praise the so-called CoH2 pros that did the same thing or worse, ridiculous double standard.
pez
9 Feb 2014, 10:14 AM
#166
avatar of pez

Posts: 180

Can you two idiots just stop? Obviously Ciez is trying to turn this into a flamewar, and naturally, Basilone, you've taken the bait as usual.

This has nothing to do with Reborn members general dislike for the game. And it also has nothing to do with these petty troll wars that 90% of Reborn could give a fuck less about. We play the game we want to play, and we do it when we feel like it. Sorry we don't like CoH 2, or the game play.

The other amazing thing to me about all your posts is that you tell Ami to go away, and he will not be missed. Yet, if he did, you wouldn't have a forum or a public place to voice your opinion at all.

One last thing. This site was built from day one to let people like you voice their opinion and not be censored. So I'll voice mine on people like you, in this community, at this moment. I think the people with the biggest mouths, the loudest opinions, with the least amount of insight have a lot to say. I think you're full of shit. But you know what? I'm glad there's a place where we can discuss things and no one is censored for it.
9 Feb 2014, 10:27 AM
#167
avatar of Von Kluge
Patrion 14

Posts: 3548 | Subs: 2

9 Feb 2014, 12:15 PM
#168
avatar of MilkaCow

Posts: 577

There is nothing wrong with voicing ones opinion, but in this case the who, when and where/how was a problem.
First of all there are quite some people who actually like CoH2, amongst them quite some vCoH players so you can't say that 'all' vCoH players hated it. People had different expectations - some wanted a re-skinned vCoH with better graphics located on the eastern front, others wanted a similar game. CoH2 shares a lot of similarities with vCoH, but some essential ones (popcap, resources, commanders) are different, meaning it actually plays different.
Second Ami just ran SNF5, the biggest CoH2 tournament which was supported by Relic. Additionally Relic is long known to post quite a bit on this page and have a good relation to CoH2.org - which is also run by Ami, putting him in a position pretty close to Relic. Lastly he continuously praised the game during the casts.
Third is that the opinion was voiced on a stream, which was highlighted and in a way that makes it look even worse than the actual content (in my opinion).

Combining this, a person with a high profile in CoH2, who runs a site with a rather okay user count, who said he 'supports' the game and loves the CoH-franchise publicly bashes the game. Do you really wonder why this makes people that actually like CoH2 angry and annoyed? Or why this is causing such a fall out? Hell yea, it's getting blown out of proportion, but as a person who got a lot of publicity Ami should've known what it would cause. To anyone who did not know this all along (I mean, his lack of knowledge about CoH2 was visible during the casts already showing quite disinterest) it just looks wierd - this self-declared supporter actually hates the game.

I guess it would be best to move along and let the topic die. In general, let the whole 'vCoH pros hate CoH2' die. If you say you dislike the game once and give reasons then it's constructive criticism. If you say it twice - well okay, you wanna be thorough. If you say it 30-40 times then it's not constructive criticism anymore, it's trying to ruin the game for others as well and it gets quite effing annoying. If you don't like CoH2 okay, go play something else and leave the people that play and like CoH2 alone. Now if you run a CoH2 fan page and don't like CoH2 it's a bit harder to just move on. Doing nothing will only make the situation worse, closing down the page would be a huge middle finger to anyone who helped build the site and has an interest in it's continuation. So what other possibilities are there? Change the people who run CoH2.org - so maybe Ami should do that and try to negotiate a deal with a group of persons that actually like the game (and page) and want to keep it running.
9 Feb 2014, 12:44 PM
#169
avatar of Lynskey
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 223

Change the people who run CoH2.org - so maybe Ami should do that and try to negotiate a deal with a group of persons that actually like the game (and page) and want to keep it running.


Anyone is welcome to send in a Staff Application if they want. But, the people currently in charge of the site, and not just Ami, know from a lot of years of experience that Staff need to earn their spurs. Enthusiasm vanishes quickly in the majority of people no matter how much they have initially and what they're intentions are, so it can't be a simple as shoving new people in there and hoping for the best. Saying that, there are a lot of awesome new faces on Staff and if they keep going they'll have better and greater roles in the future if they keep it up, and we're always open to new applications, to help promote anything to do with the game and listen to feedback on what we do. So, yeah, if you love the game get involved. Don't ask the community to cut it's nose off to spite it's face.

I think the discussion around #AmiGate is a really healthy thing at the moment. One of the things that led to the SC2 bubble bursting was this insipid "Hooray For Everything" attitude, where senior community figures railed against anything that wasn't positive cheerleading. What it led to was a situation where every house was built on sand and no-one called out bad ideas for what they were, or if they did they were ignored or chastised as long as the money kept coming in. It wasn't healthy.

It's far better to have problems out in the open. The question is then - do you say that those making criticisms should be drummed out of the community, or should those problems get discussed so something positive come out of it? For me it's healthy if the community leaders problems with the game are out in the open and everybody who enjoys the content and cares about it knows what's going on behind the curtain. People like Ami, TFN etc are just like the rest of the community, they just happen to be producing content which gives them a different perspective and a host of problems that might not be apparent to viewers and fans. If those problems are out in the open then there's more chance of things getting solved and for the community to move forward.
9 Feb 2014, 12:57 PM
#170
avatar of rezzzzen

Posts: 76

There is nothing wrong with voicing ones opinion, but in this case the who, when and where/how was a problem.
First of all there are quite some people who actually like CoH2, amongst them quite some vCoH players so you can't say that 'all' vCoH players hated it. People had different expectations - some wanted a re-skinned vCoH with better graphics located on the eastern front, others wanted a similar game. CoH2 shares a lot of similarities with vCoH, but some essential ones (popcap, resources, commanders) are different, meaning it actually plays different.
Second Ami just ran SNF5, the biggest CoH2 tournament which was supported by Relic. Additionally Relic is long known to post quite a bit on this page and have a good relation to CoH2.org - which is also run by Ami, putting him in a position pretty close to Relic. Lastly he continuously praised the game during the casts.
Third is that the opinion was voiced on a stream, which was highlighted and in a way that makes it look even worse than the actual content (in my opinion).

Combining this, a person with a high profile in CoH2, who runs a site with a rather okay user count, who said he 'supports' the game and loves the CoH-franchise publicly bashes the game. Do you really wonder why this makes people that actually like CoH2 angry and annoyed? Or why this is causing such a fall out? Hell yea, it's getting blown out of proportion, but as a person who got a lot of publicity Ami should've known what it would cause. To anyone who did not know this all along (I mean, his lack of knowledge about CoH2 was visible during the casts already showing quite disinterest) it just looks wierd - this self-declared supporter actually hates the game.

I guess it would be best to move along and let the topic die. In general, let the whole 'vCoH pros hate CoH2' die. If you say you dislike the game once and give reasons then it's constructive criticism. If you say it twice - well okay, you wanna be thorough. If you say it 30-40 times then it's not constructive criticism anymore, it's trying to ruin the game for others as well and it gets quite effing annoying. If you don't like CoH2 okay, go play something else and leave the people that play and like CoH2 alone. Now if you run a CoH2 fan page and don't like CoH2 it's a bit harder to just move on. Doing nothing will only make the situation worse, closing down the page would be a huge middle finger to anyone who helped build the site and has an interest in it's continuation. So what other possibilities are there? Change the people who run CoH2.org - so maybe Ami should do that and try to negotiate a deal with a group of persons that actually like the game (and page) and want to keep it running.


+1
i completely agree with what you said especially this part
There is nothing wrong with voicing ones opinion, but in this case the who, when and where/how was a problem.

9 Feb 2014, 13:24 PM
#171
avatar of m00nch1ld
Donator 11

Posts: 641 | Subs: 1

Milka just dont be a hypocrite pls. Ive seen you talking bad things about this site and its users and yet youre still active here and youre even a strategist.

ps i would love to read a guide you wrote.

peace out
9 Feb 2014, 13:26 PM
#172
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 892





I think the discussion around #AmiGate is a really healthy thing at the moment. One of the things that led to the SC2 bubble bursting was this insipid "Hooray For Everything" attitude, where senior community figures railed against anything that wasn't positive cheerleading. What it led to was a situation where every house was built on sand and no-one called out bad ideas for what they were, or if they did they were ignored or chastised as long as the money kept coming in. It wasn't healthy.

It's far better to have problems out in the open.


+1000

I was really worried in sc2 already in beta about some of its design decisions and noone ever dared to complain about anything. Worst part is there is still A LOT of people beliving sc2 is this perfect competative game and textbook example how to do a sequel. How a game that revolves around deathball ever can be a competative game i can never understand.. im sure if sc2 wasnt called starcraft noone would care about it.

Its good that these highprofiles in coh community voice their true opinions, but i dont like the way they look at coh. Ami seemed to think coh's with its small commmunity its easy to be the "best" casters and get a following and take that following to an other game and use coh community as a springboard... not actually giving a fuck about the game and community really. That to me feels like he is twofaced and that yoink guy wasnt any better.. almost worse.

I have no problems however if he feels the game is bad, its a good thing he speaks up about it.
9 Feb 2014, 14:39 PM
#173
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10622 | Subs: 9

Rule no.1: never kick a sponsor in the nuts. Otherwise, you might get this kind of response

We actually debated that. The YT celeb thing. The original idea was to get some top level SC2 casters to play the game and stream it. But Lynx and I pushed to instead use that money to fly our community casters to Vancouver. Later some of that money ended up funding SNF.

But who knows, we may try something like that in the future.


It would be beyond sensible to invisibule the last half of this thread and ask Yoink to take down his vid asap

Even if SNF wanted to go elsewhere and seek a sponsor, I cannot see any future sponsor reading/viewing the Amigate disclosures with any relish. Doesn't matter if Yoink was in his cups - it's commercial suicide for SNF to let this stuff stay up.

Rule no 2 : never, ever kick a sponsor in the nuts.


A_E
9 Feb 2014, 14:39 PM
#174
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2170 | Subs: 3

"even more money" is relative. Basically what I'm saying is that we can not afford to do another Season at what we were paid. It was far too many hours of work for far too little money.


It's a hobby, gaming is a hobby, being part of a gaming community is a hobby. I've put hundreds of hours into organising tourneys etc. in a million years, I wouldn't want to be paid for something I do in my spare time for enjoyment.

I've had a private benefactor tell me I can keep a share of the prize fund and have turned it down, not bragging, but in my opinion it's immoral to expect payment for something of this nature.

If players need money to motivate them to play, fuck them, let other players that want to play for the sake of competition play instead. If commentators want money to motivate them to commentate, fuck them, let other commentators that have genuine interest commentate instead.

Your 9-5 is your money, this is your free time. If you let your hobby become your job, you're doing it wrong. I have no problem with you ami on a personal level, but your expectations of payment, and arguments here are severely misaligned with the size of this community and the spirit of it.

9 Feb 2014, 14:43 PM
#175
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2800 | Subs: 6

lot of craptalk detected in here Kappa
9 Feb 2014, 15:00 PM
#176
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1639 | Subs: 2

Some people are so cynical here, it's not relics official site, so the fanboys of coh2 can move to the right site, if they feel that the author of this site has said things that hurt the true community. Ami was right about what he said, cause many players feel the same way. Doesn't mean all hell has to break loose.

9 Feb 2014, 15:22 PM
#177
avatar of Stoffa

Posts: 333

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Feb 2014, 15:00 PMSpanky
Some people are so cynical here, it's not relics official site, so the fanboys of coh2 can move to the right site, if they feel that the author of this site has said things that hurt the true community. Ami was right about what he said, cause many players feel the same way. Doesn't mean all hell has to break loose.


Errr...right. Like CoH2.org isnt the nr1 fansite for anyone remotely interested in CoH2. Fact of the matter is we currently have the following unhealthy situation:

CoH2.org was founded by CoH1 fans that were hyped about CoH2. Later on this very game became a disappointment to pretty much all of them. The site, however, had already become the nr1. site to go to for CoH2 fans (yes, even more than the official forums).

After all this happened the founders of the site should have gone either way: A)play the game anyway, and support the community or B)voice their opinion, move on and play something else. Instead they choose neither: they did stick around and, like a broken record, kept telling everyone who would listen how disappointed they were with the successor of the game they loved.

The fact that they founded this site to me doesn't justify them trying to ruin this game for so many people that do like it, and happened to join coh2.org. Besides whether it is "fair" that they use their site for this purpose, I also simply don't see the point: why are they wasting their time like that?

After I heard Ami tell Yoink "and what if Sega paid us EVEN MORE money? Would you consider coming back?" and "Well at least it looks good on your resume" that last question got answered. Although Ami now tries to trivialize everything he said, and tries to make it look like he was paid jack shit for SNF, what he said about "getting EVEN MORE money" won't be forgotten.
9 Feb 2014, 15:27 PM
#178
avatar of awa59noob
Benefactor 3110

Posts: 152

Hi People,

can you plz try not to blow this thing out of proportion. Ami had a private diskussion with a friend and spit his guts out, so what...?
Of course it would have been better if this wouldnt have been made public. BUT
1)Ami always had his concerns abut coh2 and always expressed it public for example he said numerous times the commander system and the UI was bad and he felt trolled by it. He said a lot of upgrades like smoke needs to go in main game away from commander.. aso

2.Of Course he is a big fan of relic, and of course he was let down (numerous times - no new commander before snf ends and so on) by relic. Of Cource he expected the next big thing after coh but this didnt become true,and he is annoyed to death. I would be too in his place. He put months of hours an hoped for a esport title, which could compete with sc2. But it is evident that relic doesnt concentrate on this.

3. People want the internet fame, but not the work. God forbid that someone who builds sth up over years gets 1-3 Euros an hour for his work. I find this annoying.

4. I dont keep track about the negative posts, but its funny that the persons who feel the community betrayed most, i have never heard. No Caster, mapper aso. What did they do for the community.. noting. But they hold the deepest grudge.

Last but not least, im sure relic or the sponsors will get an email or sth from ami and then the matter is closed as well. There is no alternative to SNF an ami.


Best regards

PS: I know ami didnt do everyting alone, but this thread is about him...
2 of 2 Relic postsRelic 9 Feb 2014, 15:34 PM
#179
avatar of Noun

Posts: 454 | Subs: 9

Relic never assured Ami that no new Commanders would be released during SNF. We specifically said that there would be new one's coming and reached an agreement to lock SNF at the already released Commanders.
9 Feb 2014, 15:48 PM
#180
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 892

Hi People,

can you plz try not to blow this thing out of proportion. Ami had a private diskussion with a friend and spit his guts out, so what...?
Of course it would have been better if this wouldnt have been made public. BUT
1)Ami always had his concerns abut coh2 and always expressed it public for example he said numerous times the commander system and the UI was bad and he felt trolled by it. He said a lot of upgrades like smoke needs to go in main game away from commander.. aso

2.Of Course he is a big fan of relic, and of course he was let down (numerous times - no new commander before snf ends and so on) by relic. Of Cource he expected the next big thing after coh but this didnt become true,and he is annoyed to death. I would be too in his place. He put months of hours an hoped for a esport title, which could compete with sc2. But it is evident that relic doesnt concentrate on this.

3. People want the internet fame, but not the work. God forbid that someone who builds sth up over years gets 1-3 Euros an hour for his work. I find this annoying.

4. I dont keep track about the negative posts, but its funny that the persons who feel the community betrayed most, i have never heard. No Caster, mapper aso. What did they do for the community.. noting. But they hold the deepest grudge.

Last but not least, im sure relic or the sponsors will get an email or sth from ami and then the matter is closed as well. There is no alternative to SNF an ami.


Best regards

PS: I know ami didnt do everyting alone, but this thread is about him...


1) Well thats good

2) I can't understand how he could bet so hard on coh2 to become an esport when relic never once said during the development they wanted to do an esport game. Instead they always said "we want a game of comebacks, a game where every battle tells a story". Unless you were fooling yourself I think anyone should have seen this was not to be the next big thing in south korea.

3) Imo Tales of Heroes was the show that built up the coh community, all shows afterwards only reap the benefits of what bridger and vitensby started. Coh2 is a new game and now the same casters thinks its still gonna be the same smooth sailing. Ive been in and following "esports" before it was a thing with CPL with counter-strike and i have never seen a tournament or casters that did a couple of shows and got tens of thousands of viewers instantly (unless someone had millions as prizemoney). Ami's lack of interest in the game also came through in SNF.

4) You don't have to be the top player or a caster to be considered a part of the community and have a right to have an opinion.

***Edit***

One more thing that annoys me is when they started talking about tasteless and artosis basicly was "at the right place at the right time" and its all it takes. Tasteless went to south korea by himself. Didnt know anyone in the country, didnt speak the language. He casted BW matches for YEARS basicly in gom-tv's basement with barely any viewers, almost destoyed his voice because he had to cast almost every match himself.. and I think this was before sc2 even was in development. So don't think casters in other games havent put in blood sweat and tears for their success. Its not as easy as just switch to a more popular game and get rich.
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