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Tiger Ace

21 Dec 2013, 20:21 PM
#81
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2013, 19:17 PMrbz
[...]. Yes, you can still blitzkrieg with it, but if you call in the tiger ace to win, it usually means you have very few armor left in your army [...]


Why should you have less armor than your enemy?
rbz
21 Dec 2013, 20:27 PM
#82
avatar of rbz

Posts: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2013, 20:21 PMGreeb


Why should you have less armor than your enemy?


Sorry, I think you have not understood my post: I was simply describing the two possible scenarios in which you would call a tiger ace onto the battlefield.
21 Dec 2013, 22:01 PM
#83
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

One scenario is that you are winning or having a even game. In that case, Tiger Ace is completely OP as it gives you a huge boast against your enemy having both equal forces in the battlefield.

The other scenario is that you were losing, and in that case Tiger Ace is a second chance to win the match. That can be hard, I don't deny that, but is a chance anyway and if you were losing probably not deserved, as there isn't any other commander in the game that gives such powerful unit for free.

I could manage that if it was the only useful ability in that commander, but training units used wisely can be very powerful too.
22 Dec 2013, 02:25 AM
#84
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2013, 22:01 PMGreeb
One scenario is that you are winning or having a even game. In that case, Tiger Ace is completely OP as it gives you a huge boast against your enemy having both equal forces in the battlefield.

The other scenario is that you were losing, and in that case Tiger Ace is a second chance to win the match. That can be hard, I don't deny that, but is a chance anyway and if you were losing probably not deserved, as there isn't any other commander in the game that gives such powerful unit for free.

I could manage that was the only useful ability in that commander, but training units used wisely can be very powerful too.



This. And to take it down requires your entire army and RNG. So if he even has one tank on the field your in alot of trouble. Its simply too powerful. If it wasnt people wouldnt be posting replays where they actually beat the thing. You dont see replays named i beat an elephant now do you?

In team games its not too bad because two armiea can dog pile it. The current abuser meta is to turtke up till they can call in the ace because they know that if they arwnt facing a top skilled player or they get luxky with rng they just won.
22 Dec 2013, 04:01 AM
#85
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3545 | Subs: 2



In team games its not too bad because two armiea can dog pile it.


This

The total potential value of an army = x

Assume for the sake of argument, that a Tiger Ace is as powerful again as all the other forces you can have.

Therefore an army with a Tiger Ace has value 2X

In 1 v 1

2X is twice as big as the opponents army


In 4 v 4 however

4X + Tiger Ace = 5X

5 v 4 is better odds than 2 v 1


Especially as how the Tiger Ace will draw the attention of all the opponents and once it is gone you are now 3 v 4 the other way

22 Dec 2013, 08:26 AM
#86
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

Hopefully sometime next year Relic will nerf the Tiger Ace down to being a vanilla vet 3 Tiger and replacing the resource gimmick with a sensible price.
22 Dec 2013, 09:19 AM
#87
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

Hopefully sometime next year Relic will nerf the Tiger Ace down to being a vanilla vet 3 Tiger and replacing the resource gimmick with a sensible price.


and this will never happen, because they nerfed the TA with the CP increase already.
We are getting more commander next year...
22 Dec 2013, 09:37 AM
#88
avatar of ardenx

Posts: 19

Okay I've heard enough of the "Tiger Ace is OP" broken record noise. There was a reason that Tiger Ace groups were among the most feared units in the war. It's >supposed< to be bad ass.

Every "OMG, nerf this, OP" thread seems to beat around the bush of one basic truth: some people just won't be happy until there are 1:1 mirrored factions, and then they'll be the first in line bitching about mirrored factions and "lazy Relic".

Ten. Minutes. All resource generation is stopped. I think some people just got set in their ways of playing, they enjoy playing a certain style and when things get changed up, they whine about what's really just their unwillingness to leave their comfort zone and having to think more strategically.

Ever seen what happens when you get two soviet tanks to ram a Tiger Ace at the same time? Goodnight Tiger Ace. There are plenty of countering-strats. Man the F up. Its one unit, it can't be everywhere on the map at the same time. Learn to adapt.
22 Dec 2013, 09:39 AM
#89
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

I don't mind more commanders. I suspect we were supposed to get more alongside Southern Fronts, but the feedback for Elite Troops and Industry was so universally negative that they decided to hold off for a while, and do some more balancing.

From Peter's comments on SNF last week, it's clear that Relic are only too aware of how pissed off a lot of people were with the last batch, and so I think future commanders will have more subtle/less overtly OP units and abilities.

That's my hope, at least...
22 Dec 2013, 16:55 PM
#90
avatar of SgtBulldog

Posts: 688



This

The total potential value of an army = x

Assume for the sake of argument, that a Tiger Ace is as powerful again as all the other forces you can have.

Therefore an army with a Tiger Ace has value 2X

In 1 v 1

2X is twice as big as the opponents army


In 4 v 4 however

4X + Tiger Ace = 5X

5 v 4 is better odds than 2 v 1


Especially as how the Tiger Ace will draw the attention of all the opponents and once it is gone you are now 3 v 4 the other way


If you assume 1 TA in 1v1, you must assume X TA in XvX. Otherwise your comparison make no sense.

I also question the basic assumption. I think the value of TA is actually geared if there is more than one present at the same time. For example a mine can only be cleared once and laying mines for TA #2 is not an option as long as they are both prevailing.
raw
22 Dec 2013, 17:23 PM
#91
avatar of raw

Posts: 644

Tiger Ace is the noob tube of CoH2.
22 Dec 2013, 20:18 PM
#92
avatar of tokarev

Posts: 307

TA can be defeated in many ways. On winter maps it's pretty much useless because once you drive it to the river, soviets will sink it in the blink of an eye.
Double RAM plus 152mm howitzer is an insta kill.
22 Dec 2013, 21:28 PM
#93
avatar of VonMecha

Posts: 419

Man Im not sure what happened, but the last week using tiger ace, it kept getting engine damaged with one ram, or one 7mp mine or at nade. Take 2 or 3 mins to repair engine damage. The last game I played the gun was destroyed with one ram. I not sure if the criticals on this thing got ninja'd, but it is insanely easy to cripple. Even popping smoke doesn't negate ram on it anymore. Or maybe that's just bugged.
22 Dec 2013, 22:08 PM
#94
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3545 | Subs: 2


If you assume 1 TA in 1v1, you must assume X TA in XvX. Otherwise your comparison make no sense.

I also question the basic assumption. I think the value of TA is actually geared if there is more than one present at the same time. For example a mine can only be cleared once and laying mines for TA #2 is not an option as long as they are both prevailing.


Well two things:

1) True but in a 3 or 4 player game I rarely have encountered more than 1 Tiger Ace at the same time. Sometimes 2, once 3

2) Yes two leveraged and used together is more than twice as good as one, but that is true of any unit (2 Panther is more than twice as good as one Panther, 2 x 34/85 is more than twice as good as 1)
23 Dec 2013, 10:23 AM
#95
avatar of SgtBulldog

Posts: 688

Man Im not sure what happened, but the last week using tiger ace, it kept getting engine damaged with one ram, or one 7mp mine or at nade. Take 2 or 3 mins to repair engine damage. The last game I played the gun was destroyed with one ram. I not sure if the criticals on this thing got ninja'd, but it is insanely easy to cripple. Even popping smoke doesn't negate ram on it anymore. Or maybe that's just bugged.


Surely the 7 ammo mine did not give your Tiger engine damage? That would be the only tank in the game.
23 Dec 2013, 17:17 PM
#96
avatar of VonMecha

Posts: 419

it happened... and i was shocked. I saw the engineer planting and was like yea right how cute, ran over it , and boom engine gone.
23 Dec 2013, 20:42 PM
#97
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2



and this will never happen, because they nerfed the TA with the CP increase already.
We are getting more commander next year...


Looking forward to my AC Cobra unlock for the Soviets this time around.

23 Dec 2013, 20:50 PM
#98
avatar of Hmortier

Posts: 82

Tiger Ace is not OP either, on two occasions have I encountered it and beaten it with relative ease (without SI). The trick is not to focus on the tank that much, and try to destroy everything else (no income = limited reinforcements). Unless your enemy is sitting on a heap of resources, it shouldn't take that long. chase infantry down, spread focus all over the map and avoid the tiger ace until it is hardly supported...

I only bought the extra commanders today because I wanted to have every commander and tactic available at my disposal, not because I felt like I couldn't win without them. I'm not going to say anything about the SI doctrine, because I don't know it well enough, but the Tiger Ace is beatable... In fact, as an Ostheer, it can be a gamble to order one in. No income can really come around and bite you in the *ss.

This being said, I don't like relic's approach on buying new commanders :( Skins, maps or missions? No problem, but with commanders you will give more options (more options, not better options) to one player than you will to another.

23 Dec 2013, 21:10 PM
#99
avatar of Paranoia

Posts: 93

Naah, every single time I called it in, I win. I like the Harry Potter vetting system and only call the ACE in if I am about to lose. Then its GG and I feel like a cheat... But it is a fun unit, just way to over powered for this game
23 Dec 2013, 21:34 PM
#100
avatar of Ohme
Honorary Member Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 889 | Subs: 1

I generally don't use this doctrine, but a properly micro'd Tiger Ace is very difficult to kill. It is not invincible, but it takes a lot of work, and a concurrent mistake by the player. I have never killed one without ram.

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