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russian armor

Do you like the command panzer?

4 Feb 2022, 12:53 PM
#21
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1


Small correction though, Panther can survive "only" 9 penetrating hits with all bonuses combined. Strong thing though is that you don't need the Command P4 close by all the time. You could wait until your Panther has eaten 7 shots, then drive it close and jump up to 9 shots.
The only drawback is that this build takes quite a while to get going. You basically need the Panther, Command P4 and at least a PWerfer for fencing off ATGs, better yet a Brummbar. Potentially you need to build a normal P4 for the mid game, which would put the game at the 30 min mark until you have everything together. On the positive side, you can create the build from a standard, unspecialized Ostheer one by just adding a Command P4 once the normal P4 dies.


"only" 9 shots equals to outsurviving allied heavy tanks and even the king tiger in terms of what you can sustain as punishment. actually, a veteran sturmtiger has only 40 more health points

1400 potential health for a tank is really strong + you also shield infantry with the aura + IT ALSO WORKS ON ALLIES. to top it off, hull down demounts instantly (letting you escape right away) and (I THINK) you get panzer tactician with it.


in team mode additionally you can reliably pull off this build, unless you are heavily losing (triple cap & both fuels lost.) axis teams simply need to get fuel caches and play the waiting game, and eventually overwhelm the allies with panther/arty spam
4 Feb 2022, 13:18 PM
#22
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919


Small correction though, Panther can survive "only" 9 penetrating hits with all bonuses combined. Strong thing though is that you don't need the Command P4 close by all the time. You could wait until your Panther has eaten 7 shots, then drive it close and jump up to 9 shots.
The only drawback is that this build takes quite a while to get going. You basically need the Panther, Command P4 and at least a PWerfer for fencing off ATGs, better yet a Brummbar. Potentially you need to build a normal P4 for the mid game, which would put the game at the 30 min mark until you have everything together. On the positive side, you can create the build from a standard, unspecialized Ostheer one by just adding a Command P4 once the normal P4 dies.


Yeah you are right. I miscalculated because I took the formula

960:[160x0.65] = 9,23 hits

The correct one is

960:[160x0.75x0.9] = 8,89 hits

Thanks for correction. Either way it feels like crazy survivability ingame. I played with it and I had to play against it. If you don't loose your first 1-2 tanks you will have your command PzIV and 1-2 Panther plus Pzwerfer/Brummbar at some point thanks to resource inflation. At that point you are super strong.


4 Feb 2022, 13:25 PM
#23
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2



"only" 9 shots equals to outsurviving allied heavy tanks and even the king tiger in terms of what you can sustain as punishment. actually, a veteran sturmtiger has only 40 more health points

1400 potential health for a tank is really strong + you also shield infantry with the aura + IT ALSO WORKS ON ALLIES. to top it off, hull down demounts instantly (letting you escape right away) and (I THINK) you get panzer tactician with it.


in team mode additionally you can reliably pull off this build, unless you are heavily losing (triple cap & both fuels lost.) axis teams simply need to get fuel caches and play the waiting game, and eventually overwhelm the allies with panther/arty spam

Yes, I fully agree.
I just added some points that I think are necessary.
My main point is: It is an expensive build and it will only work as a complete package. Without the Brummbar/PWerfer it basically falls apart since your Panther will get killed by ATGs. And the earliest you'll get it is 25 minutes if you skip literally all unnecessary fuel cost and your team has to build fuel caches. Realistically, you're on the 30 min plus side. The other option is that two Ostheer players need to split the units among each other, but this required way more micro and coordination as well as force concentration.
The build works very, very well on larger modes with narrow maps like Angermunde, especially if the opponents do not spam artillery. It doesn't on super open maps or smaller modes though.
4 Feb 2022, 13:29 PM
#24
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919



You just gave me an idea for my next OST game cheers mate have a good weekend take care.


You are welcome :)

If the game draws out into the super late game and you have the fuel, don't forget to hull down your Elephant. You get a 87,5 range monster. Don't worry too much about the cone of the fixed cannon, it gets pretty wide in the end.

...and the elephant really can take 10 shots.

1040:[160x0.75x0.9] = 9,63 hits

It helps vs. artillery shells too (200 damage goes down to 135).

Edit: Panther normally needs 5 direct artillery hits to be destroyed, with hull down + damage reduction it goes up to 8, since 7x135 is only 945 damage. Barely a few hitpoints below its total health. Depending on the situation you can sit out a barrage if needed.
4 Feb 2022, 14:03 PM
#25
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1


Yes, I fully agree.
I just added some points that I think are necessary.
My main point is: It is an expensive build and it will only work as a complete package. Without the Brummbar/PWerfer it basically falls apart since your Panther will get killed by ATGs. And the earliest you'll get it is 25 minutes if you skip literally all unnecessary fuel cost and your team has to build fuel caches. Realistically, you're on the 30 min plus side. The other option is that two Ostheer players need to split the units among each other, but this required way more micro and coordination as well as force concentration.
The build works very, very well on larger modes with narrow maps like Angermunde, especially if the opponents do not spam artillery. It doesn't on super open maps or smaller modes though.


axis players are either artillery players or tank spammers, so it is easy to get indirect fire on AT in an axis random team.

your p4 command affects ordinary tanks (p4, stugs, what not) and infantry too, it will be useful as a secondary tank regardless of what you go.

You still have access to your strong infantry while stalling for armor, and most team games either end with a stomp, or at a painful, slow and bloody slug out that lasts forever.


regardless you also get elefant in the same doctrine, which can use hulldown and get upwards of 100 range (the kv-2, for comparison, has only ~70 effective range). IMO its an overpowered and broken doctrine and possibly better than jaeger armor on some maps
4 Feb 2022, 16:46 PM
#26
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919


regardless you also get elefant in the same doctrine, which can use hulldown and get upwards of 100 range (the kv-2, for comparison, has only ~70 effective range)


Its a range of 87,5 actually (70 range +25%). But either way I do think the Elephant should have been excluded from the hull down range upgrade. On 3v3/4vs4 laney maps it is alreay close to op with 70 range on other maps and smaller game modes sometimes so useless that the extra range doesn't change anything at all.

It is especially idiotic that you can destroy 17pdr emplacements without any effort head-on. 17pdr emplacements are situational useful at best already. But looking at the state of the game I don't think this will change anymore.

Edit: Sorry for going offtopic with Elephant hull down.
4 Feb 2022, 17:02 PM
#27
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

axis players are either artillery players or tank spammers, so it is easy to get indirect fire on AT in an axis random team.

your p4 command affects ordinary tanks (p4, stugs, what not) and infantry too, it will be useful as a secondary tank regardless of what you go.

You still have access to your strong infantry while stalling for armor, and most team games either end with a stomp, or at a painful, slow and bloody slug out that lasts forever.


regardless you also get elefant in the same doctrine, which can use hulldown and get upwards of 100 range (the kv-2, for comparison, has only ~70 effective range). IMO its an overpowered and broken doctrine and possibly better than jaeger armor on some maps

Unless you're lucky, a random team will lack the coordination that your team mate will be ready to protect your hulled down Panther with his Brummbar or PWerfer. It'll work if you have an arranged team on voice chat though, otherwise the reaction time will be too long and you'll probably need to pull your Panther out anyway, even if it can take about ~12 shots accounting for penetration.

Otherwise I am not fully sure. I didn't debate the overall usefulness of the Command P4 or claim it would only help your armor. The only thing I initially said was that it is somewhat difficult to fit into proper builds and that it helps armor more than infantry. The posts today were focusing on the specific Command P4+Panther+Brummbar build only.
And as Gawain pointed out, the Elefant gets 87,5 range when hulled down. The KV2 should get 70-80 depending on veterancy if I am not mistaken.
4 Feb 2022, 17:35 PM
#28
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919


It'll work if you have an arranged team on voice chat though, otherwise the reaction time will be too long and you'll probably need to pull your Panther out anyway, even if it can take about ~12 shots accounting for penetration.


Good guess. Taking in account penetration chance and accuracy of ATG (4% miss chance at long range for ZIS and 6pdr) a ZIS or 6pdr needs to shot 13-14 times on average. That are about 35 seconds for double ZIS and about 30 seconds for double 6pdr (with the initial shoot of both ATGs taking no time). That leaves some time to react. Using panzer tactican while remaining hulled down would prolong this furher since not all ground attacks will hit. So I do think there should be some time to communicate with teammates that are listening and reacting. Of course there are random mates where all communication is sucked up by a black hole.

I do think USF has the biggest problem with Command PzIV / hull down combo since they have no ATGs which aren't a munition sink. USF only has the Jackson as a reliable AT source and that one will loose badly vs Panther with hull down / command PzIV aura. You can pretty effectively shut down USF tanks at certain areas of the map that way.



4 Feb 2022, 17:46 PM
#29
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

i just tried the cp4 + panther + brumbar build in 4v4 random

not ideal for 2 panthers in 4v4 imo.

it is costly and lacks vision. i dont know i keep getting hit by allies TD.

i wont mind replace the elefant with spotting scopes!
4 Feb 2022, 18:24 PM
#30
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

i just tried the cp4 + panther + brumbar build in 4v4 random

not ideal for 2 panthers in 4v4 imo.

it is costly and lacks vision. i dont know i keep getting hit by allies TD.

i wont mind replace the elefant with spotting scopes!


Without scouting its not as good for sure. You need vetted 222, forward positioned pios, a camouflaged sniper on hold fire or something like that. Using the plane which comes with the doctrine all the time is too expensive for sure. Or you need a teammate which has the hindsight to povide los with a unit like infrared HT.
Allied TDs need that vision with their own faction tools too.
4 Feb 2022, 22:23 PM
#31
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

Good guess. Taking in account penetration chance and accuracy of ATG (4% miss chance at long range for ZIS and 6pdr) a ZIS or 6pdr needs to shot 13-14 times on average. That are about 35 seconds for double ZIS and about 30 seconds for double 6pdr (with the initial shoot of both ATGs taking no time). That leaves some time to react. Using panzer tactican while remaining hulled down would prolong this furher since not all ground attacks will hit. So I do think there should be some time to communicate with teammates that are listening and reacting. Of course there are random mates where all communication is sucked up by a black hole.

I do think USF has the biggest problem with Command PzIV / hull down combo since they have no ATGs which aren't a munition sink. USF only has the Jackson as a reliable AT source and that one will loose badly vs Panther with hull down / command PzIV aura. You can pretty effectively shut down USF tanks at certain areas of the map that way.

Well from the top of my head I calculated with 200 pen, which is slightly off. Chances change quite a lot depending on veterancy of both the Panther and the ATGs.
One downside I had when I tried to play with hull down (already some time ago), is that you can feed a lot of vet to enemy ATGs. The ATGs can take 1-3 salvos and then pull back. It's hard to react properly on time. The enemy can generally take the initiative. Unless you have constant vision with a high vet 222, there is a decent chance you won't spot the approach.
This is obviously a micro issue too which I am really not good at, but on the other hand this is the same for the Ostheer player.

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