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russian armor

Why Brits Armor

5 Nov 2021, 21:43 PM
#101
avatar of GGnore

Posts: 76


pull up stats for the highlighted part for both Comet and KT pls, because I'm 100% sure the claim is pure BS. And comet is not cheap.


The kt is no doubt better but you can only have one kt since its a heavy-effective vs everything tank but the comet doesn't have a unit cap which is at odds with all the other generalist heavys and at odds with units that have shit loads of utility like jager command squads and officer units, imagine playing vs wehr with 4 jaeger command squads.

It would be annoying since they could operate alone without a spotting unit & negate their natural counter (mgs) and offer so much utility & bang for buck the wehr player wouldn't build anything else, the same is happening with the comet.

Also I dont know if the comet stats take into account the +10 accuracy buff from the commander upgrade in the infantry dps table as well as its high moving accuracy unless that was nerfed.
5 Nov 2021, 23:34 PM
#102
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2021, 21:43 PMGGnore


The kt is no doubt better but you can only have one kt since its a heavy-effective vs everything tank but the comet doesn't have a unit cap which is at odds with all the other generalist heavys and at odds with units that have shit loads of utility like jager command squads and officer units, imagine playing vs wehr with 4 jaeger command squads.

It would be annoying since they could operate alone without a spotting unit & negate their natural counter (mgs) and offer so much utility & bang for buck the wehr player wouldn't build anything else, the same is happening with the comet.

Also I dont know if the comet stats take into account the +10 accuracy buff from the commander upgrade in the infantry dps table as well as its high moving accuracy unless that was nerfed.

The claim that Comet has KT level of AOE (watch the graph above). I was not arguing about comet being weak/strong. Honestly I got pissed of blatant overestimation by Ullu.

Accuracy does not influence infantry hit chance all that much.
Example:
Comet has 0.045 accuracy at range of 20. Generic infantry has target size of 1. 0.045*1=0.045 or 4.5%. With accuracy bonus (4.5*1.1*1)*100%= 4.95%. So we have 4.5% vs 4.95%. Obviously that's not a whole lot. Also, AFAIK, accuracy bonus does not influence MG accuracy, which is a source of consistent DPS. In other words it only applies to the main gun.
6 Nov 2021, 01:42 AM
#103
avatar of GGnore

Posts: 76

Are you sure thats how bare bones the calculation is ? 4% sounds like at gun vs infantry odds lol.

From personal experience, a tanks accuracy makes a literal night and day difference in infantry effectiveness when moving vs stationary and im aware its a 50% hit but +10% is definitely not negligible and do you know if the comet still has .75% moving accuracy ?
6 Nov 2021, 01:58 AM
#104
avatar of Dyingbattery22

Posts: 32

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2021, 21:43 PMGGnore


The kt is no doubt better but you can only have one kt since its a heavy-effective vs everything tank but the comet doesn't have a unit cap which is at odds with all the other generalist heavys and at odds with units that have shit loads of utility like jager command squads and officer units, imagine playing vs wehr with 4 jaeger command squads.

It would be annoying since they could operate alone without a spotting unit & negate their natural counter (mgs) and offer so much utility & bang for buck the wehr player wouldn't build anything else, the same is happening with the comet.


This
Pip
6 Nov 2021, 02:16 AM
#105
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2021, 01:42 AMGGnore
Are you sure thats how bare bones the calculation is ? 4% sounds like at gun vs infantry odds lol.

From personal experience, a tanks accuracy makes a literal night and day difference in infantry effectiveness when moving vs stationary and im aware its a 50% hit but +10% is definitely not negligible and do you know if the comet still has .75% moving accuracy ?


Yes, you have somewhere in the region of a 4% chance to actually hit a target. In practice this is not generally meaningful however, as you are relying on a favourable scatter roll, not a favourable accuracy roll for tank cannons.

An average AT gun has nominally better accuracy than most tank cannons, but has ludicrous scatter and a practically negligible AOE which is part of why they do practically nothing to infantry.
MMX
6 Nov 2021, 02:40 AM
#106
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2021, 01:42 AMGGnore
Are you sure thats how bare bones the calculation is ? 4% sounds like at gun vs infantry odds lol.

From personal experience, a tanks accuracy makes a literal night and day difference in infantry effectiveness when moving vs stationary and im aware its a 50% hit but +10% is definitely not negligible and do you know if the comet still has .75% moving accuracy ?


His calculation is 100% accurate. Tank gun accuracy has virtually no effect vs infantry and the AT-gun odds analogy is hitting the nail on the head. 10% more to a 4-5% chance to hit is still abysmally small. Hence, the moving accuracy debuff also doesn't make much of a difference unless you aim at something considerably bigger than an infantry model.

IIRC, the Comet's moving acc should be 0.5 as for most british tanks
6 Nov 2021, 03:39 AM
#107
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2021, 01:42 AMGGnore
Are you sure thats how bare bones the calculation is ? 4% sounds like at gun vs infantry odds lol.

From personal experience, a tanks accuracy makes a literal night and day difference in infantry effectiveness when moving vs stationary and im aware its a 50% hit but +10% is definitely not negligible and do you know if the comet still has .75% moving accuracy ?


When it comes to dealing damage to infantry tanks deal dmg through AoE & scatter. Not with accuracy. (Let MG be apart from the topic ATM)
AT & tank both have poor(less than 5%) accuracy that you can't really rely on. The difference is,

1. AT deals 40 dmg to infantry
2. AT has 0.5(!!!) AoE. With range: 0.15/0.2/0.25 modifier: 100%/15%/5% Practically no dmg
3. AT has scatter of 10.

So Combine those 3, AT can't hit the model directly, missed shot will land on far far away, and even if it does land close to the target, it has to land 0.5 AoE close & even that will deal 40 dmg(0n 0.15) or much less (*0.15 or 0.05).

This is reason why you don't expect any kind of dmg over infantry.

OTOH, tanks(that are not TD), tends to have better scatter and AoE. So even missed shot will land close to the target, and it will deal 160 dmg * moddifer according to the AoE stat.

So when it comes to dealing dmg to infantry, there is 3 important stat.

1. Fire rate
2. AoE
3. Scatter

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2021, 01:42 AMGGnore
From personal experience, a tanks accuracy makes a literal night and day difference in infantry effectiveness when moving


You are right with the obeservation, but wrong with the reason.
Moving tanks deal less damage because sactter gets doubled(some tanks might have less penalty than this but anyway) when it is moving. So missed shot will land far from the target. Dealing less (or more likely none) dmg.
12 Nov 2021, 18:12 PM
#108
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176



section is weak early outside of cover & command vehicle aura
recovery sappers are good at minute 0, but get outmached later on when you actually get your infantry upgrade, and are retired to merely repair your tanks
officer i don't really use, don't know much about it
bofors is stationary and very easy to dispatch of
centaur is alright, not worth it though

Sturms are good early and then they fall off, like they should
volks don't scale, but they are good early and are replaced by obers and tanks when they finally fall off
obers are really good, if you are impatient get fallshirms instead
ostwind can solo x3 to x5 penals and never even get get murdered with kiting, you're really fucking terrible if a single penal defeats your ostwind. three squads wielding elite bazookas or panzershreks though...
if you want mainline that scales, you should've picked pfusiliers

the king tiger and p4 do a great job at fighting anything in front of them, nothing to be said here


As you can see, a good unit is one that can use from the beginning and able to scale to late game along with weapon upgrade & vet. This is the whole problems of Sturms & Volks, Kubel. Non of them scale. The whole vet they earned in early is a waste when you have to let they die and replace them with Ober.
Ober LMG can beat Riflemen double Bar 1v1. But thats it. I doubt they're able to 1v1 vet2-3 Riflemen at 10min. And this is not mention Shock/Ranger/Commandos that come far earlier, which mean they will get vet that time.
You cant look at a unit 1v1, but also the time they're arrive, plus able to scale or not.
- Say, do you want Shock in Tier4 nondoc or doctrine at 5min?


Brit is the only faction that their default mainline scale extremely great.
Im not really complain about how powerful Section is, for their cost, upgrade is far more expensive.
Though pop cap is equal to Gren is really stupid. Its like T3476 has the same popcap to T3485

Did I mention Ostwind in my post?
12 Nov 2021, 18:25 PM
#109
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 707 | Subs: 1



As you can see, a good unit is one that can use from the beginning and able to scale to late game along with weapon upgrade & vet. This is the whole problems of Sturms & Volks, Kubel. Non of them scale. The whole vet they earned in early is a waste when you have to let they die and replace them with Ober.
Ober LMG can beat Riflemen double Bar 1v1. But thats it. I doubt they're able to 1v1 vet2-3 Riflemen at 10min. And this is not mention Shock/Ranger/Commandos that come far earlier, which mean they will get vet that time.
You cant look at a unit 1v1, but also the time they're arrive, plus able to scale or not.
- Say, do you want Shock in Tier4 nondoc or doctrine at 5min?


Brit is the only faction that their default mainline scale extremely great.
Im not really complain about how powerful Section is, for their cost, upgrade is far more expensive.
Though pop cap is equal to Gren is really stupid. Its like T3476 has the same popcap to T3485

Did I mention Ostwind in my post?


if you want scaling infantry that is good at all stages of the game go pfusiliers, or wait 2 cp and go for fallshirmjagers (and have equally as strong infantry)

i would have agreed that kubel doesn't scale until i played okw and realized that you get essentially map hacks at veterancy 1, which is REALLY easy to acquire with early kubels


you dont need to fucking sacrifice your troops to get new ones, you put obers into them so volks take the damage and obers give out the damage, or get fallshirms which are essentially obers but come at cp2 and become terminators at pzhq level.


13 Nov 2021, 05:24 AM
#110
avatar of Operator09

Posts: 79

this comet can deflect 2x faust, faust can't kill it even with 1 hp and that's pathetic. Its bouncing RNG is way too much I've never seen a tank bouncing lots of AT even on sides, rear, Faust or same level heavy class shots. This armor moves like a PUMA and can be spammed.
13 Nov 2021, 06:07 AM
#111
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1263

this comet can deflect 2x faust, faust can't kill it even with 1 hp and that's pathetic. Its bouncing RNG is way too much I've never seen a tank bouncing lots of AT even on sides, rear, Faust or same level heavy class shots. This armor moves like a PUMA and can be spammed.


Faust recharges quicker then at nades. That is still a plus.

Faust cant kill it? if true needs to be fixed.

It can be spammend same as the panther p4 etc. Nothing op imo.

Its armour is on par with axis armour nothing op about it.

Its speed is almost the same as the panther. Nothing op about it.
13 Nov 2021, 06:34 AM
#112
avatar of Operator09

Posts: 79



Faust recharges quicker then at nades. That is still a plus.

Faust cant kill it? if true needs to be fixed.

It can be spammend same as the panther p4 etc. Nothing op imo.

Its armour is on par with axis armour nothing op about it.

Its speed is almost the same as the panther. Nothing op about it.


you should watch tightrope on tanks that cannot be killed by faust with 1hp it's so stupid. I had a game where stupid comet dived. Got faust 2x with 1 hp 1 deflected and 1 hit but it doesn't kill.
13 Nov 2021, 09:40 AM
#113
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1263



you should watch tightrope on tanks that cannot be killed by faust with 1hp it's so stupid. I had a game where stupid comet dived. Got faust 2x with 1 hp 1 deflected and 1 hit but it doesn't kill.


I remember that. Dont know if the problem lies with the faust or the comet. At nade also had this problem i believe.
13 Nov 2021, 15:55 PM
#114
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 707 | Subs: 1



you should watch tightrope on tanks that cannot be killed by faust with 1hp it's so stupid. I had a game where stupid comet dived. Got faust 2x with 1 hp 1 deflected and 1 hit but it doesn't kill.


in the very same video it is essentially explained that every other snare is worse off than the faust with this problem
16 Nov 2021, 02:09 AM
#115
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 266

this comet can deflect 2x faust, faust can't kill it even with 1 hp and that's pathetic. Its bouncing RNG is way too much I've never seen a tank bouncing lots of AT even on sides, rear, Faust or same level heavy class shots. This armor moves like a PUMA and can be spammed.

how about USF snare bounce in the crusial time ?. Fun fact: faust snare had a best pen value.
16 Nov 2021, 02:15 AM
#116
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 266

the point of OKW volk, They need a mainline stayed on frontline long enough to win Manpower fight. With sturmpios, MG 34, leig gun, LV... Volk just do their job well.
Just put your Ober vet 0 behind volk. Dont solo fight with vetted inf.
16 Nov 2021, 21:34 PM
#117
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Just make all snares 1000 pen 80 damage, it is not something worth having RNG on. I'd also standardize snare fire time across all factions. Nothing is fun about waiting for a rifle snare to go off.

Brit armor is fine. The buffs to the Firefly over time has made them THE late game armor slayer, and the nerfs to the Churchill and Comet give them supporting roles, which is fine. Both are hard countered by non-doc Panther, and soft countered by JP-4 both of which hit the field at or before them. AT guns work great vs both.
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