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Volks mp40 vs stg44 vs no update

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25 May 2021, 17:01 PM
#121
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1220

By the way only team games matters and okw is damn strong here especially because stuka zu fuss cancer
Pip
25 May 2021, 17:34 PM
#122
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

By the way only team games matters and okw is damn strong here especially because stuka zu fuss cancer


I'm not sure what gives you the impression that team games are the only ones that "matter".

1v1/2v2 are the modes the game "works" closest to how it's meant to, and they're the ones (generally just 1v1) used for tournaments.
25 May 2021, 18:59 PM
#123
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

(finally got around to answering)
OST medkits function very differently though. No AoE healing, casting time and you can "only" use it on your main line. Medkit crates can be picked up by anyone and most importantly provide AoE healing, practically cutting the price at least in half. However you are fixed in place, but that is the case with any "medic squad" healing as well, which they are meant to replace.

OST medkits are much less cost efficient, I do realize that. I think I've put it badly. I know that OKW medkits are more versatile and cost efficient, but they are still less cost efficient than fixed healimg while being essentially unusable outside of your base. It's not that it's a bad trade (tho having to bunch up units during its limited time uses throughout the whole match is definetly annoying, especially when you want to have as much field presence as possible), is that it's still, as you said, a substantial munition bleed, and in my opinion, a munition bleed that doesn't synergize with faction design and tech design. I'll try to explain what I've observed. This is from your post:


As you said, OKW is supposed to get all trucks out at some point


Now, yes, you do need to, I agree with that. If not for the medics, you absolutely need that le.IG in late game when HMGs and ATGs become very relevant (obviously, the stuka is NOT a viable unit in 1vs1). When you factor in that you want to actually pull out a flak hq and a medium before the BTG you almost always end up being able to do it only when your volksgrenadiers should have almost reached 4, their passive healing bonus is very near, and your Obersoldaten squad is almost always relatively close to vet 3, that also gives them passive healing.


OKW is strong in all modes (outside of tournaments), and even in 1v1 does not lack much behind Ostheer if at all. The lack of tournament play is something to be concerned about for sure, but given that larger stat samples show otherwise this does not seem to be a problem outside of the top 20 players.
Regarding LVs: OKW functioned well on T2 builds, even without a heavy to crutch on. Players still seemed to choose T2 builds despite the heavy mun bleed for a long time. Now their T1 got stronger and more accessible. Now there indeed is some powercreep that made other factions easier to play as well. Maybe my view on this is scewed, but I see both T1 and T2 builds regularly in the game.


It fares slightly worse than Ostheer in automatch in 1vs1, but it's very strong in teamgames, even more than Ostheer. I think it has a few clutches that barely compensate for its holes, while an ostheer team player can really compensate for its weaknesses and complement it well. The exploitable holes are exactly why it is generally avoided in competitive, at least this is how I see it.
I never disagreed about T1 and T2 being equally viable today. I think the mod team did a good job with balancing the power level between both. I just answered to the poster claiming that crate healing wasn't an issue because Mechanized was meta when Mechanized was meta for other reasons entirely, especially T1 weaknesses before substantial leig and flaktrack buffs. I disagree with the notion that having the option to have a BTG set up as just healing station rather than fully paying 45 fuel (or the idea of the linear teching) would make T2 LV rush too strong (especially because, in the case of keeping a "non linear" tech structure, not having the leig can be imo crippling from mid game onwards)


The aim of my suggestion is to slightly reduce the mun bleed of OKW from the mid game onwards. This should keep the intended trade off between STGs and healing intact while allowing more munitions float later on. As you said, OKW is supposed to get all trucks out at some point. If the resource pressure is too high in 1v1 but not in team games, SP veterancy might actually be the way to go. SPs shine in 1v1 situations and can level up quicker, while they are worse in team games. Additionally, wipes are also easier in team games due to more arty. This change should therefore benefit 1v1s more than team games and would ease the pressure of getting T1 out after teching T2 and T3.


I see your point, it would definetly alleviate the issue and maybe it's the simpler solution that would fix it, but the way I see it, it would be a further incentive to skip backteching entirely, which, as I said, is overall very expensive (45 fuel in total with medics) for something that (by late game) is complemented by passive healing on most of your squads.

To sum up: it's really counterintuitive as design choice to deny medics with OKW to balance Tier 2 strats since your infantry veterancy makes up for it, but it makes up for it way too slowly so you really still need healing for most of the match. By the time you are ready to set up a BTG after your Panzer IV J you are so close to those passive healing bonuses that it's hardly a good choice to build it at all
What I'm saying is: while the concept of having a trade off where you rely on medkits more before replacing it with healing makes sense, it doesn't really work because you are left for too long with medkits and passive healing kicks in in late game

I think widespread passive healing was another of Relic mistakes, and so was making non linear teching with tier locked medics
25 May 2021, 19:09 PM
#124
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

By the way only team games matters

25 May 2021, 21:02 PM
#125
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I'd like the Mp40 to be buffed and STGs become doctrinal or tied to vet/tech as AL alternative scaling option. Part of the problem with okw and volks is the massive power spike volks get in part by the STGs and the brain deadness of the design of them. They are similar to BARS in this regard imo. But MP40s give a CHOICE and a path and also smoke easier access to smoke which okw needs.

Now to the STG suggestion, with it tied to vet or tech (say an STG per interval) it will improve both variants of volks (Mp40 and kar98)

If STGs were moved to doctrines they could even remain the same as now, only obviously restricted
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