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MGs need to be looked at

8 Apr 2021, 17:47 PM
#1
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 40

Since green cover has been less abundant with the latest patch, I'm seeing MGs being used to a shockingly effective degree on certain maps. I saw elpern play a in which MGs were able to effectively the entirety of crucial map points and keep him out of controlling his cutoff, fuel, etc.

The biggest issue I believe is how effectively MGs are able to work independently, and the huge disparity in effort it takes to setting up an MG compared to dislodging one. MGs are on paper supposed to be support weapons, but nowadays it seems they are able to work pretty well with minimal support, sometimes none at all depending on the map. The biggest offenders in this case are the MG42 and .50 cal.

I think the solution to this would be increasing the pack-up time of all MGs. As it is, its far too easy for these units to kite grenades, mortars, etc. which gives them the potential to solo multiple infantry units if micro'd properly.
8 Apr 2021, 17:52 PM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17414 | Subs: 8

Prior to the patch were you building sandbags and moving it in the HMG direction or what?

You deal with HMGs exactly the same way you did before, literally nothing changed here.
8 Apr 2021, 17:59 PM
#3
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 40

Prior to the patch were you building sandbags and moving it in the HMG direction or what?

You deal with HMGs exactly the same way you did before, literally nothing changed here.


No, but having more access to green cover made it more viable to bait MGs with into shooting with infantry while flanking and not having said infantry be a useless, surpressed bleed during the process.
8 Apr 2021, 18:02 PM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17414 | Subs: 8



No, but having more access to green cover made it more viable to bait MGs with into shooting with infantry while flanking and not having said infantry be a useless, surpressed bleed during the process.

Again, absolutely nothing changed, sandbags build few seconds longer, there is no hard cap of 3 per map or whatever you believe happened.

If there is not enough sandbags for you now, its because you are not building enough sandbags anymore.
Pip
8 Apr 2021, 18:04 PM
#5
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1294


If there is not enough sandbags for you now, its because you are not building enough sandbags anymore.


Yes, because they take longer to build, and are therefore fewer are able to /be/ built due to time economy necessitating other actions.

What are you even trying to convey here?

The patch was intended to reduce the amount of sandbagging being done across factions (with mainline sandbags), and it did exactly that. The cause and effect is pretty clear.
8 Apr 2021, 18:06 PM
#6
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 40


Again, absolutely nothing changed, sandbags build few seconds longer, there is no hard cap of 3 per map or whatever you believe happened.

If there is not enough sandbags for you now, its because you are not building enough sandbags anymore.


The very point of the previous change was to make sandbags less widespread and it worked pretty well.

Anyway, I'm glad sandbags were made less readily available as it was an annoying mechanic, but I think it indirectly masked the issue of the potency of MGs on certain maps. You could say half of it is a map issue, but then the solution would be out of reach.
8 Apr 2021, 18:16 PM
#7
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 167

Something about the new formation is funky. Those front 2 models have a ridiculous leash range and wander way out from the rest of the squad. This can give the squad position away and/or make it a nightmare to focus down with explosives.

The other effect, intended or not, that I've noticed is that wiping MGs with Grenades is basically impossible even when the front models remain close. The only exception remains if they bunch up in yellow cover, but in practice its basically killed fast grenade tech.
8 Apr 2021, 18:27 PM
#8
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 40

I probably should have refrained from putting this in the balance section since this is an issue that faces all factions more or less, and it's rather just an annoying mechanic kind of like how sandbags were.

I've been doing some thinking and I appreciate how AT guns got a received accuracy nerf so they could be punished more readily when out of position. In light of this, I think adding a received accuracy penalty when MGs are not set up/on the move would be a sufficient change, since it punishes players for being caught out of position.
8 Apr 2021, 18:39 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17414 | Subs: 8



The very point of the previous change was to make sandbags less widespread and it worked pretty well.

Anyway, I'm glad sandbags were made less readily available as it was an annoying mechanic, but I think it indirectly masked the issue of the potency of MGs on certain maps. You could say half of it is a map issue, but then the solution would be out of reach.

It changes absolutely nothing post early game, where you would be building sandbags while capping points.

Pip
8 Apr 2021, 18:51 PM
#10
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1294

I probably should have refrained from putting this in the balance section since this is an issue that faces all factions more or less, and it's rather just an annoying mechanic kind of like how sandbags were.

I've been doing some thinking and I appreciate how AT guns got a received accuracy nerf so they could be punished more readily when out of position. In light of this, I think adding a received accuracy penalty when MGs are not set up/on the move would be a sufficient change, since it punishes players for being caught out of position.


MGs have a large issue of being comparatively weak as the game drags on, though. The prevalence of yellow cover, and the massively increased DPS of infantry units (And, of course, the existence of vehicles, rocket artillery in particular) means that they're much less viable from midgame onwards.

Giving them further RA penalties, or anything of that sort, is just going to exacerbate that problem.


It changes absolutely nothing post early game, where you would be building sandbags while capping points.



Except Sandbags don't evaporate, they stay around until they're destroyed. If you aren't able to build as many sandbags in the early game, then you will have fewer in the mid-lategame, especially as after the early game you are going to be actively fighting over positions, leaving your units less time to be away from the action building sandbags.

The increased time to build also makes smaller openings less viable in which to build new sandbags, you are more likely to be interrupted before you finish simply due to taking longer. To say the increased time to build changes "Absolutely nothing" post early-game is outright false.
8 Apr 2021, 18:54 PM
#11
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1256

Something about the new formation is funky. Those front 2 models have a ridiculous leash range and wander way out from the rest of the squad. This can give the squad position away and/or make it a nightmare to focus down with explosives.


I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks that. It feels I have barely any control over these two front two models, they seem to enjoy casually walking away from their squad. What's up with that?
8 Apr 2021, 19:05 PM
#12
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3100 | Subs: 1

With the new formation they've been made more powerful on the early game, I think one of the side effect is an increase in their vision range because of it and that's one of the reason for nerfing scout unit vision range when they pick them.
But still without scout units they certainly gain an big buff not only in their survivability.
8 Apr 2021, 19:06 PM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17414 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2021, 18:51 PMPip

Except Sandbags don't evaporate, they stay around until they're destroyed. If you aren't able to build as many sandbags in the early game, then you will have fewer in the mid-lategame, especially as after the early game you are going to be actively fighting over positions, leaving your units less time to be away from the action building sandbags.

Infantry does not suddenly lose ability to build them and unless you're playing top level 1v1(which clearly non of us does), you'll have more then enough time to build and fortify all you need.

If you have so little downtime to not be able to build sandbags, explain to me, how do UKF sim cities are being made? Are they paradropped? There clearly is 30-60 seconds to build them, you'll find these 20 for a sandbag.

You're making excuses about a change that changed EXCLSUSIVELY early game, because you CAN and you WILL build sandbags when you're decapping and recapturing opponents point/taking back yours, so again, stop making up excuses.
Pip
8 Apr 2021, 19:24 PM
#14
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1294


Infantry does not suddenly lose ability to build them and unless you're playing top level 1v1(which clearly non of us does), you'll have more then enough time to build and fortify all you need.


Not during the early game, or the early-midgame, when you are constantly under attrition. This is also the stage in which MGs are most effective, which is what the thread is about. The original post is talking about attacking into MGs being difficult without the benefit of green cover sandbags, good luck building sandbags when an MG is already covering an area.

If we're talking wood-league play then the nerf didn't even do anything at all, even in the early game. The delayed sandbag speed hardly matters when players can't micro/strategise to begin with, not that bad players even really know how to use sandbags to begin with.


If you have so little downtime to not be able to build sandbags, explain to me, how do UKF sim cities are being made? Are they paradropped? There clearly is 30-60 seconds to build them, you'll find these 20 for a sandbag.


They don't generally get made vs competent opponents. Are UKF sim cities a big thing in 1v1 nowadays?


You're making excuses about a change that changed EXCLSUSIVELY early game, because you CAN and you WILL build sandbags when you're decapping and recapturing opponents point/taking back yours, so again, stop making up excuses.


It didn't "EXCLSUSIVELY"[sic] change the early game. If you're recapturing territory entirely un-opposed, then sure; you can build sandbags. You aren't capturing all territory unopposed though, and slower sandbagging means you are more likely to be interrupted, as I already stated. You will have an overall reduced number of sandbags throughout the game, in general.

You're also assuming you're exclusively capturing fully enemy-held territory, decapped territory being captured still leaves you with dead time.
9 Apr 2021, 05:16 AM
#15
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 164

Infantry blobbing and mainline spam don't need buffs or incentives.


MGs were indirectly nerfed by the significant improvements to mortar smoke and were buffed against frontal blob assaults, as it should be.
10 Apr 2021, 01:20 AM
#16
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 40

Infantry blobbing and mainline spam don't need buffs or incentives.


MGs were indirectly nerfed by the significant improvements to mortar smoke and were buffed against frontal blob assaults, as it should be.


It wouldn't encourage blobbing, but rather give mgs proper punishment when flanked.
11 Apr 2021, 02:15 AM
#17
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 275

If you use Osttruppen in the upcoming patch they can build sandbags pretty quickly
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