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Penals, the Elephant in the room

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4 Jan 2021, 14:45 PM
#141
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1936 | Subs: 2



Since It seems you are new to the game I will explain.

1) You soft lock yourself out of MGs, Mortars and most important ATGs.
2) Penals bleed very easy due to their RA and they cost a lot to reinforce specially early on.
3) They have 0 utility. They are either decent AI or Shitty AT atm.
4) Building T1 for sniper means that you basically pay 500 mp and 10 fuel just to get a single unit and if you get something else from T1 then you lose all early map presence and will struggle to get any ground.
5) No snares meaning that since you don't have any AT measures you will struggle to fight vehicles.

Clown car + Penals against OKW is the only semi-viable thing in T1 atm. Or if you are for example VonIvan\Kimbo you might pull off T1 against anyone.

All of this for 1v1 and most of this for team modes.


Add to this that T1 + Penals or Sniper is a huge waste of resources and at the same time a terrible presence on the map, the enemy dominates from the start: in the number of units, in the capture of points and resources. Somewhere in 3 vs 3 it can be neutralized because of allies, but 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 is in most cases you will guarantee yourself a loss.
4 Jan 2021, 14:53 PM
#142
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 172



Since It seems you are new to the game I will explain.

1) You soft lock yourself out of MGs, Mortars and most important ATGs.
2) Penals bleed very easy due to their RA and they cost a lot to reinforce specially early on.
3) They have 0 utility. They are either decent AI or Shitty AT atm.
4) Building T1 for sniper means that you basically pay 500 mp and 10 fuel just to get a single unit and if you get something else from T1 then you lose all early map presence and will struggle to get any ground.
5) No snares meaning that since you don't have any AT measures you will struggle to fight vehicles.

Clown car + Penals against OKW is the only semi-viable thing in T1 atm. Or if you are for example VonIvan\Kimbo you might pull off T1 against anyone.

All of this for 1v1 and most of this for team modes.


Sorry I play the game since 2013.
I didnt play Soviet for 4 years so I cant tell the problems of faction.

I have an idea to balance between Cons & Penal. But it doesnt fix the Tier. And may mess up Commander. Or not a good idea at all:

Cons: reduce weapon accuracy, increase their toughness.
Penal: reduce toughness, reduce cost. Able to upgrade either AI or AT option
- Success play is to merge Conscript to Penal for better weapon & toughness
4 Jan 2021, 15:42 PM
#143
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1



How are you going to redesign T1? This will definitely require adding a new unit to make T1 an alternative to T2. Adding new units is impossible.

I do not think that adding a unit is impossible.

There many option, one has first to decide how he want the faction to work and the design the building and unit.

For instance:
T1 and T2 could be a choice
Soviet could be designed to build all 4 building
T1 could become an option tech building specifically for infatry heavy build
T1 could become an option for a fast cap opening with limited fighting ability
....

There many different option it all comes down on how one want to design the faction.
4 Jan 2021, 16:58 PM
#144
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

Step1: Make Satchel bundle nade equivalent in time/AoE to make Penals viable anti-infantry after the early/midgame.
Step2: Penal Satchel now requires upgrade so they are no minute 1 Pgrens.
Step3: Penal Satchel, conscript Molos and AT nades are all unlocked together in a single upgrade. This makes combining conscripts and penals in a single build viable.

Penal problems solved.

Optional Step4: Reduce tech cost of T1 and T2, increase tech cost of T3 to make T1 a less 'all or nothing' investment and make T2 more attractive in the early game. This would make T1+T2 builds viable. the changes can be further expanded upon to make Soviets less cheesy by making zis3 barrage a vet ability (it's less needed when a stock grenade is available), and making penal PTRS rifles less effective against infantry since penal/maxim combos could be a thing actually worth making.
4 Jan 2021, 18:21 PM
#145
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

Step1: Make Satchel bundle nade equivalent in time/AoE to make Penals viable anti-infantry after the early/midgame.
Step2: Penal Satchel now requires upgrade so they are no minute 1 Pgrens.
Step3: Penal Satchel, conscript Molos and AT nades are all unlocked together in a single upgrade. This makes combining conscripts and penals in a single build viable.

Penal problems solved.

Optional Step4: Reduce tech cost of T1 and T2, increase tech cost of T3 to make T1 a less 'all or nothing' investment and make T2 more attractive in the early game. This would make T1+T2 builds viable. the changes can be further expanded upon to make Soviets less cheesy by making zis3 barrage a vet ability (it's less needed when a stock grenade is available), and making penal PTRS rifles less effective against infantry since penal/maxim combos could be a thing actually worth making.


Satchel doesn't make or break Penals, so I don't think it's that impactful (besides I love satchels for what they offer anyway).

Your seccond suggestions sounds better but it's the question of whether to reduce mp costs or fuel costs. And if you just reduce fuel costs then it doesn't help that much since one of the problems of soviet teching is how manpower hungry it is imo.
4 Jan 2021, 19:05 PM
#146
avatar of proletariat

Posts: 19

null
4 Jan 2021, 23:13 PM
#147
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 10:32 AMVipper

That would be improvement with better result but it would be a redesign of Penal battalion since they would be an AI unit only.

You're the one who just said it's a problem that they can fight infantry and then become AT. So make them pick ptrs or SVTs before they build it instead of after

That's the simplest fix to the thing you say is an issue. Like I said I don't think they should do it
5 Jan 2021, 07:30 AM
#148
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1


You're the one who just said it's a problem that they can fight infantry and then become AT. So make them pick ptrs or SVTs before they build it instead of after

That's the simplest fix to the thing you say is an issue. Like I said I don't think they should do it

I am not sure to what my post was unclear.

Having a separate AT and AI unit would be an improvement to current implementation.

It will also be a redesign of Penal something you have claimed at it will would "complicate".
5 Jan 2021, 07:42 AM
#149
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:30 AMVipper

It will also be a redesign of Penal something you have claimed at it will would "complicate".

It's hardly a redesign, that was the whole point. It was a simple solution avoiding the need to redesign in the first place

But I'll say once again, i don't think it's necessary. I think the current trajectory in the patch is a good one. Yours is very unclear
5 Jan 2021, 07:45 AM
#150
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1


It's hardly a redesign, that was the whole point. It was a simple solution avoiding the need to redesign in the first place

But I'll say once again, i don't think it's necessary. I think the current trajectory in the patch is a good one. Yours is very unclear

To me turning an all round unit to specialized is redesign. You are entitled to your opinion.

I have made more than one suggestions on how to make T1/penal better designed even in this threat, other have also suggested change like Gaia.
5 Jan 2021, 07:52 AM
#151
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:45 AMVipper

To me turning an all round unit to specialized is redesign

That's already what penals do Vipper. They are not all around units, they can be one at time. They can't switch back and forth like an ISU

Guards are all around units. Penals can be one or the other, that's clearly not the same. All that change was intended for appease your strange issue with their having the flexibility of when to make that choice
5 Jan 2021, 08:04 AM
#152
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1


That's already what penals do Vipper. They are not all around units, they can be one at time. They can't switch back and forth like an ISU

Guards are all around units. Penals can be one or the other, that's clearly not the same. All that change was intended for appease your strange issue with their having the flexibility of when to make that choice

Ok I will call them transition units if it makes you happy.
5 Jan 2021, 10:15 AM
#153
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:04 AMVipper

Ok I will call them transition units if it makes you happy.

Providing some good reasoning that your changes are better than what's in the patch would be preferred
5 Jan 2021, 10:42 AM
#154
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8


Providing some good reasoning that your changes are better than what's in the patch would be preferred

What?
Repeating "you are simply wrong/you are projecting/its design fault" and so on is not enough of a reasoning for you?
You dumdum or something?
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