Login

russian armor

Scatter This! - Your trusty scatter calculator

MMX
4 May 2020, 10:33 AM
#1
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

Hey Everyone!

Since the community has recently been provided with an immensely useful tool to simulate tank vs tank combat by Hannibal, I've decided to follow his lead and proudly present you Scatter This! - an Excel-based calculator to analyze scatter and AoE-based anti-infantry performance of tanks and indirect fire units.

Now many of you will probably say "Wth is this and what would I ever need this for?", so let's start with a brief explanation what this spreadsheet does and why, before glancing over on how to use it and for what purpose:

1) What does Scatter This! do?



2) How to use Scatter This!?



3) Why would I want to use Scatter This!?



4) Where to get Scatter This!?



This project is kind of a work-in-progress, so please feel free to check back on possible updates every now and then. Also, any comments and suggestions are highly welcome, and if you find any errors (likely!) in the data sheet, let me know so I can fix them.

Last but not least, big shout out to Vipper and especially Hannibal for the fruitful discussion and suggestions regarding the scatter model used in the simulation over the last weeks.

Best
-MMX-


UPDATE 5/18/2020 New version of the Spreadsheet is available!
  • Fixed non-functional OHK and natural hit counters in the main result table
  • Added an info box displaying the chance and damage for a natural hit (accuracy roll), as well as the respective chances to deal highest possible and lowest possible amount of AoE damage vs a single target.
  • Corrected some errors in the data sheet and added profiles for rocket artillery pieces
  • Fixed the orientation of the in-game formation templates (preset 4-6) by rotating 90° clockwise. Thanks again to Hannibal for pointing out the error!


UPDATE 2/4/2021 It's been quite a while since I've last revisited the spreadsheet, but a revamped version with tons of new features is now available here!
  • Complete overhaul of the calculator that now not only simulates the damage of main gun projectiles, but also offers a crude approximation of MG damage output. Ever wondered if that pintle MG on top of the PzVI is even worth the munitions? Test out how much of a difference it actually makes with the simulator!
  • Revamped Simulator tab that now calculates the average damage and kills dealt (total, by MG and by main gun) after each shot for each model in a squad over 100s or 1,000s of repetitions.
  • Graphical interface that allows quick and easy visualization and comparison of results
  • New templates for rocket artillery and various off-map arty strikes
  • A number of bugfixes, especially for the unit stats in the Data tab


UPDATE 2/19/2021 A couple of bugfixes and a new interface with fancy graphs ready to download here!
  • Added a new graphical interface tab that allows comparison of up to 4 datasets and shows damage/kills over time, the contribution of MGs and the main gun to overall damage and model kills, as well as plots comparing the respective AoE and scatter area curves
  • Included option to export/import datasets to/from .txt
  • Fixed the damage reduction multiplier not correctly applying to machine gun damage
  • Fixed an error in the TBS (time between shots) calculation affecting weapons with cooldown


UPDATE 1/12/2022 It's been a while since the last update to the spreadsheet, so I figured it's time to bring back ScatterThis! with updated unit stats reflecting the most-recent patches and a number of new features. Get the newest version here!

  • Updated MG damage calculation model: While the previous solution allowed a crude approximation of the DPS/KPS the tank-mounted MGs add to the overall AI performance, it wasn't really suited to capture the variance, or "hit-and-miss" nature, usually observed in-game (who doesn't love chasing a retreating squad across the map while constantly missing the last, lethal hit?). The new randomized model does just that by taking the number of fired bullets, targeting delays and accuracy into account when randomizing the damage output in a more realistic fashion

  • Improved simulation algorithm: A couple of tweaks to the VBA code tremendously increased the speed of the simulation, meaning that results are generated in about 1/10 of the time it took previously.

  • Up-to-date unit stats (sort of): While some remaining errors are likely, most of the recent balance changes should have made it into the unit stats tab of the spreadsheet by now. Unfortunately, some new abilities (e.g. the 105mm Sherman's and leFH's new barrage abilities) are still missing as there's currently no way of extracting the stats from the game.

  • New unit templates: A couple of light and ultra-light vehicles are now implemented (including the SdKfz 222 AC; thanks to Klement Pikhtura for the suggestion).

  • Improved simulator tab: The simulator tab has received some additional functionality and most relevant options (e.g. FoW and moving penalties, % uptime of tank-mounted MGs, etc) can now be set directly in the simulator tab.

  • Overhauled comparison tab: The graphical interface for plotting and comparison of the simulation results has been revamped to allow more data sets (6) to be displayed at a time. Other plotting options, such as switching between continuous or stepwise graphs and different color schemes have been added as well (again many thanks to Klement Pikhtura for the valuable feedback).

  • Damage distribution plots: The new damage distribution tab offers a more in-depth way to analyze how much and how reliable a unit delivers its damage over time. The 3D datasets produced in this tab display the probability distribution of how much damage / how many model kills are scored with each successive shot. This can give a pretty good impression of the variance (or reliability) of the DPS/KPS output as well as the alpha-damage capabilities, both of which are otherwise hard to capture using 2D plots.


4 May 2020, 11:07 AM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1

Nice work.
Thanks for credits.
4 May 2020, 12:56 PM
#3
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

Wow, very well done! That is a nice neatly complex implementation, big thumbs-up for doing the most difficult part and time-intensive part of the work which is the coding & thoughtful academic design! Well done to you MMX for all of that and to Hannibal for laying the coding ground work - I also really like the clear and distinct examples of how you use the file. Excellent.

edit: giving it a go right now, that is proper good stuff!
4 May 2020, 15:00 PM
#4
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2

Very great work!
You put plenty of time into this. The text of the post alone... wow!

I think this will be especially useful for balance team to determine scatter and AoE changes on units. But obviously this will clear up a lot of questions and discussions about AI performance. Let's see how forum discussions go from here on onwards, I hope less toxic.

Wow, very well done! That is a nice neatly complex implementation, big thumbs-up for doing the most difficult part and time-intensive part of the work which is the coding & thoughtful academic design! Well done to you MMX for all of that and to Hannibal for laying the coding ground work - I also really like the clear and distinct examples of how you use the file. Excellent.

edit: giving it a go right now, that is proper good stuff!

I want to point out that I have provided nothing other than discussion and some of the spacing presets for this. I had nothing to do with the coding, that is all MMX's work.
4 May 2020, 15:07 PM
#5
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2

Finally I can look up how long my SU85 needs to take out that damn Volks squad.
What a happy day
4 May 2020, 17:31 PM
#6
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Great work man! Thank you so much!
4 May 2020, 17:57 PM
#7
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

:clap:
MMX
5 May 2020, 03:39 AM
#8
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

thanks a lot for all the kind words, guys!


edit: giving it a go right now, that is proper good stuff!


great to hear you're giving it a try. let me know if you run into any errors or need some more info on some of the features/settings.

Finally I can look up how long my SU85 needs to take out that damn Volks squad.
What a happy day


haha, i wonder if the hard-coded 500 max shots the sim can handle will be enough in this case...
5 May 2020, 08:17 AM
#9
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 May 2020, 03:39 AMMMX

haha, i wonder if the hard-coded 500 max shots the sim can handle will be enough in this case...

I remember that a friggin Jackson once sniped my last Sturmpio model on retreat and thereby wiped the squad. RNG was strong that game.

There seems to be an issue though with some counters in the summary table. At least for me natural hits (and I think the OHKs) were not counted properly and always showed 0, although the shot table registered them.
5 May 2020, 09:10 AM
#10
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

Very great work!

I want to point out that I have provided nothing other than discussion and some of the spacing presets for this. I had nothing to do with the coding, that is all MMX's work.


Oh, I was mostly referring to your DeCoHde 2.0 project and the detailed Python script you published. I am confident it helped a lot of people to get into creating more adjacent CoH2 content (including this!)
MMX
5 May 2020, 10:29 AM
#11
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


I remember that a friggin Jackson once sniped my last Sturmpio model on retreat and thereby wiped the squad. RNG was strong that game.

There seems to be an issue though with some counters in the summary table. At least for me natural hits (and I think the OHKs) were not counted properly and always showed 0, although the shot table registered them.


oh, that's strange. worked for me last time i checked. i'll investigate what's going wrong there!
5 May 2020, 14:35 PM
#12
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 May 2020, 10:29 AMMMX


oh, that's strange. worked for me last time i checked. i'll investigate what's going wrong there!


I mean the counting formula looked fine on first glance, but I did not have a deeper look. Just noticed that although the detailed table reported a natural hit, the summary did not.
MMX
5 May 2020, 15:44 PM
#13
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1



I mean the counting formula looked fine on first glance, but I did not have a deeper look. Just noticed that although the detailed table reported a natural hit, the summary did not.


Just had a quick look and, indeed, you're absolutely correct, thanks a lot for the hint! The array function counting the OHKs seem to work... sometimes, but not consistently for whatever reason. I've switched it out against a non-array version that seems to have no issues.
However, I couldn't reproduce the counting error for natural hits in any way. Do you consistently get this or only once in a while?
5 May 2020, 15:50 PM
#14
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 May 2020, 15:44 PMMMX


Just had a quick look and, indeed, you're absolutely correct, thanks a lot for the hint! The array function counting the OHKs seem to work... sometimes, but not consistently for whatever reason. I've switched it out against a non-array version that seems to have no issues.
However, I couldn't reproduce the counting error for natural hits in any way. Do you consistently get this or only once in a while?

I think I used the sheet only twice (Excel starts) by now without PC restart, but it did not work on any of these occasions.
I will retry tomorrow and write you. Or maybe someone else can post in the meantime.
MMX
6 May 2020, 08:25 AM
#15
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


I think I used the sheet only twice (Excel starts) by now without PC restart, but it did not work on any of these occasions.
I will retry tomorrow and write you. Or maybe someone else can post in the meantime.


hmm, no idea what's going on there... at least the naural hit tally should work just fine. anyway, thanks a lot for the troubleshooting, that's very much appreciated!. anyone else that had a shot at it yet experienced the same problem?
8 May 2020, 15:37 PM
#16
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 May 2020, 08:25 AMMMX


hmm, no idea what's going on there... at least the naural hit tally should work just fine. anyway, thanks a lot for the troubleshooting, that's very much appreciated!. anyone else that had a shot at it yet experienced the same problem?


Tested the sheet yesterday (release version):

Natural hits and OHKs do not work and are not counted, at least not for me.This is a minor issue though since it seems to work for others.
The natural hits are not that important, especially not for AoE calculations. Since you you said you fixed the OHK counter, all the important information is visible.
MMX
9 May 2020, 11:07 AM
#17
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1



Tested the sheet yesterday (release version):

Natural hits and OHKs do not work and are not counted, at least not for me.This is a minor issue though since it seems to work for others.
The natural hits are not that important, especially not for AoE calculations. Since you you said you fixed the OHK counter, all the important information is visible.


thanks a lot for testing again. maybe it's related to the excel version you use? i've tested it with the office 2013 and 2016 version, but maybe some functions got changed in more recent or earlier versions.
anyway, i'll upload an updated version that fixes the OHK bug at least on my side and contains data for rocket artillery as well soon...
10 May 2020, 21:15 PM
#18
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

Does movement affects scatter? if so how much?
10 May 2020, 21:21 PM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2020, 21:15 PMzerocoh
Does movement affects scatter? if so how much?

Yes, increases it by 50%.
MMX
11 May 2020, 09:01 AM
#20
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2020, 21:15 PMzerocoh
Does movement affects scatter? if so how much?


jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2020, 21:21 PMKatitof

Yes, increases it by 50%.


The moving penalty is actually even worse. It's a straight multiplier of 2 to both angular and distance scatter that is not capped by distance_scatter_max.

So as a rule of thumb, shots will scatter double as far in the left/right and up/down direction when moving.

1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Oberkommando West flag Oziligath
  • The British Forces flag T.R. Sidewinder
uploaded by Oziligath

Board Info

219 users are online: 2 members and 217 guests
OrangePest, MMX
49 posts in the last 24h
166 posts in the last week
804 posts in the last month
Registered members: 34895
Welcome our newest member, Freudenstein45283
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM