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Attack move

23 Mar 2020, 16:25 PM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 16:20 PMJPA32


Sorry, correction.

"Attack Move is fine if you have 2 braincells to rub together and understand the basic concept of micro."

So I guess you belong to the people that have 2 brain cells and you can maneuver CQB to squad so that all entities are exactly at 10 range. My apologies if my micro is not that good.
23 Mar 2020, 16:33 PM
#22
avatar of JPA32

Posts: 178

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 16:25 PMVipper

So I guess you belong to the people that have 2 brain cells and you can maneuver CQB to squad so that all entities are exactly at 10 range. My apologies if my micro is not that good.


The point of Attack Move is so that your units don't get engaged in a fight you didn't want and don't go walking into their death while you were looking away. At max vision distance you can pull out, re-maneuver, or in the instance of a CQC unit coming up on an inferior unit, frontally charge them and force them away.

If you're simply taking fights with Attack Move and not issuing any orders to your unit that encountered an enemy, you're doing it wrong bud. Attack Move is not intended to be the end-all be-all of issuing a unit an order. It's a security measure first and foremost.
23 Mar 2020, 16:37 PM
#23
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 16:16 PMVipper

I have explained what the problem with attack move are.


I mean, have you? SMGs for example have long range - they just don't do any damage there. What happens when you have a squad like PPsh conscripts or G43 grenadiers?
23 Mar 2020, 16:55 PM
#24
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



I mean, have you? SMGs for example have long range - they just don't do any damage there. What happens when you have a squad like PPsh conscripts or G43 grenadiers?

Conscripts PPsh DPS peaks at 0, but one is better off maintaining range 10

G43 grenadier peaks at range 0, but they are better off maintaining range 6.

Of coarse that depend also on what they are facing.
23 Mar 2020, 16:57 PM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 16:33 PMJPA32


The point of Attack Move is so that your units don't get engaged in a fight you didn't want and don't go walking into their death while you were looking away. At max vision distance you can pull out, re-maneuver, or in the instance of a CQC unit coming up on an inferior unit, frontally charge them and force them away.

If you're simply taking fights with Attack Move and not issuing any orders to your unit that encountered an enemy, you're doing it wrong bud. Attack Move is not intended to be the end-all be-all of issuing a unit an order. It's a security measure first and foremost.

And once more I have explained how difficult it is to maintain optimum range.

If you problem is the attack move order then you should asking for a different attack order instead of becoming toxic.
23 Mar 2020, 19:01 PM
#27
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 16:57 PMVipper

And once more I have explained how difficult it is to maintain optimum range.

If you problem is the attack move order then you should asking for a different attack order instead of becoming toxic.


Optimum range depends not only what you are attacking with but also what you are attacking. Conscripts optimum range against Stormtroops is max range. Against Grenadiers its close range. Optimum range is also not really that relevant due to the cover mechanic (e.g. it's better to be in green cover at 18 range than be in gray cover at some ideal 15 range point or whatever). Then there is the fact that almost every unit in the game has a weapon where max DPS is achieved at close range, so you can't use that as a metric either.

It just seems impossible to implement in a meaningful way, without also making the game play itself. So.. why bother?
23 Mar 2020, 19:08 PM
#28
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
Terrible idea, u don't want to charge some half health assault units into close/midrange.

23 Mar 2020, 19:25 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Optimum range depends not only what you are attacking with but also what you are attacking. Conscripts optimum range against Stormtroops is max range. Against Grenadiers its close range. Optimum range is also not really that relevant due to the cover mechanic (e.g. it's better to be in green cover at 18 range than be in gray cover at some ideal 15 range point or whatever). Then there is the fact that almost every unit in the game has a weapon where max DPS is achieved at close range, so you can't use that as a metric either.

It just seems impossible to implement in a meaningful way, without also making the game play itself. So.. why bother?

What makes you think that it is "impossible to implement in meaningful way without also making the game play itself"?

The game already plays itself and that makes moving units into desired range very difficult due to number of thing like formation and cover gravity.
23 Mar 2020, 20:02 PM
#30
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Advice: NEVER EVER says something is "EZ" when programming and code is involved. Unless you can provide a solution which is not a "hack" type of solution.
23 Mar 2020, 20:37 PM
#31
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 19:25 PMVipper

What makes you think that it is "impossible to implement in meaningful way without also making the game play itself"?


Because, as I said, units don't have an optimum range since optimum range depends on what they are fighting and what the cover situation is.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 19:25 PMVipper

The game already plays itself and that makes moving units into desired range very difficult due to number of thing like formation and cover gravity.


And it does so the same for everybody. What difference does it make if A-move now will always take SMG troops into the magic <10 range for all squad models? SMG squads will get nerfed and so their effectiveness stays the same and you have achieved a grand total of nothing.
23 Mar 2020, 20:56 PM
#32
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Because, as I said, units don't have an optimum range since optimum range depends on what they are fighting and what the cover situation is.


Optimum range in fight between 2 squads depends on allot of factors and should require user input.

The suggestions is to have the option to move SMGs troops to range 10 (in most cases) where they have the highest DPS.



And it does so the same for everybody. What difference does it make if A-move now will always take SMG troops into the magic <10 range for all squad models? SMG squads will get nerfed and so their effectiveness stays the same and you have achieved a grand total of nothing.

Difference is that you will not have the frustration of having model stay in behind or moving to close due to formation, cover gravity...

This is not balance issue but user friendly issue.
23 Mar 2020, 21:05 PM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 20:56 PMVipper


Optimum range in fight between 2 squads depends on allot of factors and should require user input.

The suggestions is to have the option to move SMGs troops to range 10 (in most cases) where they have the highest DPS.

That's a dictionary definition of contradiction right there pal.

This is not balance issue but user friendly issue.

That's players map awareness and micro issue...
23 Mar 2020, 21:12 PM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 21:05 PMKatitof

That's a dictionary definition of contradiction right there pal.

PLS read and try to understand before quoting.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 21:05 PMKatitof

That's players map awareness and micro issue...

I will let katitof respond to you.
jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2020, 14:06 PMKatitof
...
That's just arguing semantics(again).
...

23 Mar 2020, 22:02 PM
#35
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 16:00 PMVipper

Well one could probably add a "invisible weapon" with no damage with max range the desired one.


Even if you could, that'd be a huge amount of work, a nightmare to maintain, and judging by the Crocodile's problems could create a whole host of other issues.

Tweaking Attack Move is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure you appreciate that coder time is a limited resource for the balancing team.
23 Mar 2020, 22:41 PM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

I am not sure why people claim that so difficult since a similar thing has ready been done in MOD.
23 Mar 2020, 23:32 PM
#37
avatar of Musti

Posts: 203

Sorry Vip but the boys are right, tacking on spaghetti code isn't a way to solve problems, it just creates more of them, especially since the problem is the mouse-keyboard connector.
What if the CQB unit picks up an LMG or an AT weapon? Will it now run up to a tank instead of firing at it at max range when attack-moving? How about units which change weapons? Paras? Rangers? Penals? Airborne Guards? That just creates more problems because you can't be bothered to properly micro your units.

Here's how you do it: Move your CQB unit next to enemy unit, stop-command it when you feel it's around range 10, there, done, practice that a few times and you won't need special a-move.

23 Mar 2020, 23:38 PM
#38
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 22:41 PMVipper
I am not sure why people claim that so difficult since a similar thing has ready been done in MOD.


Which mod? SneakEye's a modder so I trust him to know what he's talking about.
24 Mar 2020, 00:00 AM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 23:38 PMLago


Which mod? SneakEye's a modder so I trust him to know what he's talking about.

Can find the mod at this moment will let know when I do.
24 Mar 2020, 00:21 AM
#40
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2020, 16:12 PMJPA32


Not only is that not possible, that would be the most inane way to try going about it and would only cause more problems down the line. Attack Move is fine and doesn't need some ridiculous Spaghetti code added.

If you don't understand the backend of the game and the tools you're attempting to theorycraft for, don't speak so matter-of-factly about how "easy" supposed solutions would be, because I guarantee you they aren't easy.


Bro adding an additional hardpoint is not sphagetti code.

Take a look in the mod tools and you will find lots of units have multiple hard points
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