its a mathematical equivalent to the area covered by a certain shape... draw a torus around a unit with a maximum radius of 30 and a minimum of 20 and you will find it have more area than a circle with the radius 10... it also means there is significantly more area u can put your unit at where it can be effective against an opposing unit...
the unit that needs to close distance has the advantage the more "surface area" since you have more choices of approach. Its when you have a lane with a SMALL surfafe area that forces troops to come down an area with poor cover that gives a surface area advantage to long ranged combatants. However, I don't think surface area is really relevant here anyway as we are not talking about map design.
i both agree and disagree with this... yes generalist units are the preferred choice to specialist units as it is easy to defeat the opposing unit by moving out of its preferred combat distance... but a difference of 17% dps at all ranges really does pale in comparison to a +37.48% to +46.091% damage boost at range 20-30....
its kinda why shocks are considered good units despite being specialist units... they are really really good at what they do (thanks to dps and body armor) to the point that they are worth using...
tldr: being a specialist doesnt automatically make the upgrade worse... sometimes the specialized upgrade is simply soo large that it simply overtakes the standard one...
The advantage that generalist units have is that they will almost always be better than specialist units at some range which means a good player can find ways to put his troops there and cancel the specialist advantage. You mentioned yourself that your playstyle is long ranged. Inherently you are just going to have issues trying to use units that need flexibility when picking their engagement ranges.
its a bolster that provides +17% increase in stats instead of +25%... it also needs 50 muni per unit and needs an upgrade of 18mp to reach full squad size and is not automatically done...
It also costs zero fuel if you wait until tier 4. It also provides a veterency gain bonus. It also reduces reinforcement cost. It also gives 7 men to a squad that can merge allowing you to fully crew weapon teams. And yes this is actually done.
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well yeah against ost one kinda needs you to run straight up into them and knife fight them...till the panzergrenadiers arrive at least... then you have to use other tricks before before attacking... in any case i still think range 20 to 30 DPS is more important than knife fighting DPS due to how surface area works (ie there is more surface area between ranges 20 to 30 than ranges 0 to 10)... but i dont have problems with the 7 man upgrade personally... just that its living hell till you get that upgrade...
I dont understand your terminology,
what do you mean by surface area? As for whether dps is better to have at long range or short range, long range is easier to use because most engagements will start at your optimum range. But I think that "all range generalists" are more useful to the skilled player. Think BAR rifles, FG42 FSJ, Panzergrenadiers, penals etc. The advantage to generalists is that they can flex. A good player can move them to a range which will best suit them for the situation. Units like LMG42 grens, shocks, MP40 volks etc. Do not have this flexibility. They are good at one range and one range only and if they are beaten at that range they are flat beaten. If they can't stay at that range they are beaten.
not really... i remember testing it some time ago and at range 20 LMG grens still win (but barely)... under range 20 though they start losing...
My experience here has been that its a coin toss chance at 20-25 range.
i can do away with the vet bonus... but the cover bonus is a must imo...
Its like bolster and a individual weapon upgrade rolled into one with some juicy extras on the side. Makes sense at tier 4, not at tier 3. Not without additional expenditure anyway. |
I like the idea of Obers earlier. I would even think to put the LMG earlier behind just the Schwerer. The earlier Ostwinds though might be game breaking.
I think it says it all when at a similar timing, ostwind might be broken but hetzer should be ok. |
idk... knife fighting and mobile DPS are important but id consider range 20 and range 30 DPS as more important judging by how i play...
I wouldnt judge the efficacy of an upgrade based on a playstyle that is incompatible with it. If your preferred engagements take place at 20-30 meters then no wonder you think the 7man cons is a bad upgrade.
dont worry... grens still beat cons most of the time in medium to long ranged cover to cover fights...
In cover, 7 man Cons will trade COST efficiently even at 20 range against LMG grens.
If you removed the vet bonus and cover bonus I could see the 7 man upgrade at tier 3. |
the LMG meanwhile provides a +37.48% damage boost at range 20... and over +46.091% at range 30... thats a huge difference
The dps increase also scales down to nothing the closer the range and reduces mobile dps by 25%.
The extra model provides 17% extra dps at ALL ranges AND on the move plus the extra damage output from the cover bonus. |
the problem with the T-70 is because it melded both great anti infantry performance while being capable of punishing its counterparts such as the luchs/222/FHT/flametruck in a fast unit... these changes make it less of a hard counter against the luchs 222 and flaktruck and make it considerably easier to beat it off with armored support...
these changes makes sure the T-70 has similar anti infantry performance against the luchs but no longer punishingly effective when fighting it...
It might be a combinationof these attributes but what makes it SCARY is its AI, not its AT. If you want to reduce its power to make it not "OP" you have to address the anti infantry.
the 7 man upgrade at that cost comes no later than the ostheer LMG42... in that case its fine since the 7 man upgrade is roughly comparable to LMG grens anyways...
If all the 7 man upgrade did was give a 7th model (+17% dps and +17% durability) then i would agree. However it also gives +20% increase to vet gain, -2 reinforce cost and +8-15% dps for models when in cover.
the issue with the SU-76 is the complete lack of scaling for the unit... by adding the upgrade the unit now scales into the lategame and is not rendered totally obsolete by the SU-85
The Su76 scales better than any other vehicle of similar cost. Compare it to aec, stuart, puma etc. Yes it does drop off, so do many units but thats not the issue. The main issue is that the SU76 is inferior in its primary role to the Su85, and by a decent margin. As long as they have such a degree of role overlap, one of them will be obsolete.
this is definitely a difficult point... we both agree that the maxim needs more suppression but cannot agree as to what value it should have... imo i think MG42 suppression is fine for the maxim so long as it gets a pack time nerf aswell...
Its just too much.
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concerning SOV or the maxim?
Kinda a lot across the board. But In particular regarding soviets.
i dont have exact numbers tbh... i am just citng units i feel are overperforming and units that are underperforming... i do have some opinions though
zis = 15 popcap 360mp cost
T-70= armor to 55 penetration -5 all ranges /changed to 260mp 65 fuel cost
No. The T70 is good because of its anti infantry ability, not anti vehicle. Reducing the cost without reducing the anti infantry performance will just make things worse
T3 to 35 fuel but only has M5 HT available... 7 man conscript upgrade is unlocked by building T3
7man unlock in T3 renamed to T3 vehicle authorization cost changed to 45 fuel: unlocks SU-76 and T-70
I like the idea of the M3 being available earlier but I am not convinced this is the way to do it. Also if the 7 man upgrade is made available earlier with no side tech cost, it needs to be nerfed.
SU-76 = +5 firing arc on both sides + some sort of sherman dozer like upgrade with a price tag of 40 fuel and increases damage per shot to 160 and +80hp
No. Buffing the firing arc is fine but the upgrade is silly and still won't make it more viable compared to the SU85. The two vehicles need more distinct roles and this upgrade will not provide it.
penals = price to 270mp armed with 3x mosins and 3x SVT.. AI upgrade to 6x SVT for 60muni mutually exclusive to PTRS upgrade (performance is flattened)
Maybe. Its an uncreative solution but possibly viable.
SOV sniper = made into a clone of the ost sniper but with flare instead of incendiary shot...
Hell no. The soviet sniper and ostheer sniper where originally balanced based on their targets(4man squads, vs 6man squads), the soviet sniper would be absolutely OP with the ostheer sniper rate of fire.
maxim = buff suppression to MG42 levels... increase packup time by 1s
The maxim does not need its suppression to be at MG42 levels. It could use a buff yes but Mg42 has high suppression for a reason. I'd give it slightly better suppression then vickers and keep everything else the same.
some changes im not sure of
KV-2 = (quite oppressive in a teamgame with its huge barrage range) higher setup time for barrage mode
KV-2 already has a very lengthy setup time. Increasing its setup time further will only serve to make the unit "clunky" to use without actually changing its effectiveness.
Granted, lately I haven't been playing as much as I used to. But I know I'm at least a decent player and honestly I look at some of your suggestions, ideas and opinions and I just can't understand where they come from. |
no it isnt... SOV struggles with double maxim as anyone with a brain can just sidestep it and lavanade it... in fact the meta build against OKW is actually T1 M3 + penals + engie + cons + sniper.... going double maxim is a near death sentence in almost every situation...
Nobody decent would go with this absolute mess of a build order. And the reason you go M3 against OKW isn't because maxims suck, its because M3 is extremely strong against okw. This is not exactly advanced knowledge here... In fact, i'd argue maxims against OKW can be a viable counter meta since OKW players often preload fusiliers expecting M3s and lacking incendiary grenades, they won't be able to root out maxims from key buildings- think maps like lost glider or Langres.
I'm also not sure who all these "experts" you are referring to who "agree" that soviets are the weakest faction, I don't know any of them.
Now I do think the maxim is weak and could use a buff, but I fundamentally disagree with so much of what you've said.
Oh and I am a soviet main. |
Shermans are not wipe machines.Shermans get rekt by raketens very easily. So you cannot pass raketen wall and wipe infantry. Shermans are paper armored fun toys for axis. Jackson is nerfed hard and not best td in game. Scotts are easily counterable right now. Pack howie is only thing in usf that can damage axis but you can counter easily with werfer or stuka. 50 cals are not best. Firing arch of 50cals is small and you can easily flank 50cal. USF pay lots for healing and get baserushed by some 222 and boom!. Your healing gone unlike med bunkers cost only 60 muni and 150 manpower. And there is no pop cap advantage in USF right now. And popcop is not issue in 1v1. Bar rifles MUST DO well aganist stg volks or lmgs. Because USF pay lots and lots for reinforcement cost on riflemans and and pay 60 muni on close combat weapon(first burst from grens mg42 kill your insantly one of your squad members.) And no 5 men greens fine. PG comes to early. Most of axis players spam engineers and wait till pgs. Osttruppen was meme and now meta. People get understand how to use osttruppens.
I don't even.... |
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Its awkward because unlike pretty much any other tank with a main weapon-including ai specialists- the hetzer has literally zero anti vehicle capability. Coupled with the lack of turret, this means the vehicle is vulnerable to a T70 or hell, an M3 with penals. If you need a medium tank to get breathing room against allied lights, the hetzer simply cannot offer it.
Sure its great against AT guns, the damage output is fine against infantry in general but often around that medium tank timing you need something to scare off your opponents light vehicles or something that can even just provide support against your opponents soon to arrive medium tank.
Honestly I wish it could just be a generalist medium with no turret but longer range. But ughh its got that ridiculous flamethrower. Seriously, it would be great if it was a P4 gun(it literally is) with 50 range but no turret.
The truth is I have no good suggestions about what could reasonably be done to make the vehicle more then just a meme tank.
Maybe it could be turned into a command vehicle where its primary draw would be the support functions.
Maybe you could give it a super hard nerf and stick it in battlegroup at a reduced cost-think like a UC wasp on steroids.
But realistically, I think best thing to do would just be remove it and replace it with something more useful. |
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