Nice, I made a nice comprehensive post-responce and got rekt by a log out, when I clicked "Reply" 
But in short: combination of performance and survivability of the unit is too good and I don't think this unit is an issue in 1v1. Currently imo it is the best mobile light indirect in the game by far, while having no weaknesses whatsoever.
I agree, its survivability is absurd for how hard it hits. 1v1 no big deal, maybe even 2v2, but once mg walls can be made it most cancerous.
I personally think raks are similar, they themselves are not great but the ability to fuck up bad and just 1 click retreat out of a mistake is dumb. To combat the actual survivability of the unit i think there should be a pak up delay when retreat is issued. Anywhere from 1/2 second to a full second before the unit begins retreat animation. OR maybe slow down the packing up of the weapon animation if that is possible. |
And if it had died... would you have been able to go back and re-crew it?
These silly situational examples are the bane of this forums' balance talks.
Was on Faymonville, right outside of my base so I could have recrewed it, my most recent replay posted.
For more context, the guy decided to play very turtley, I saw he had built a reinforce bunker behind central house and he also built 2 mg. Outside of his gas and central building he did not push, he was building mines and trying to make his own little fort. Due to his passive nature I am floating massive MP so I go for double mortars and a squad of Shock Troopers after that.
He had multiple chances to counter
1. He had access to mortars but never made them, he also had mortar HT available but he never choose commander
2. I have no mg since I went T1, he could push at any time
3. He never made LV, would have forced a Penal to get PTRS giving him INF advantage
The point of the post was that I chuckled when it happened because I saw in real time what Gachi was talking about, however at no point was the unit itself OP. The opponent refused to change their strategy and paid for it which seems to be part of the problem. A lot of people don't want to deviate from what they are used to. |
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Pretty good game on my part boring on his, guy decided to turtle so I made 2 120mm mortars and pretty much bullied him from that point forward.
Went with engi/car opening and started capping noticed he had 2 engi so I assumed he would make 1 less gren and either PG or MG. He went for center VP and building control so I played around him and kept control of as much map as possible including both muni points. He seemed to be turtling hard so I decided to wait out for mortars.
From the moment I got mortars, he seemed to have no answer. After some poking I saw he had made a reinforcement bunker which I started bombarding and pushing and eventually got with satchel. Since He is so passive I was able to get 2nd mortar due to minimal MP bleed and finally shocks. I bully most of the map from him until he gets his 1st tank out and he starts to push. Takes me a tiny bit to get T3485 since most of my units were so expensive and I want to keep pressure on. I eventually get my tank out but nothing exciting happens.
I continue to bombard him and he doesn't adjust his gameplan, even making another reinforcement bunker outside of his gas. Deciding moment happens when we both get 3 tanks but I catch him out of position and kill all 3 despite RNG best job of having my tanks hit ground or bounce.
GG |
Thats pretty much my point. I wasnt proposing any major changes to its combat perfomance and be just as strong in right hands combat wise, but it should be just easier to pushing at least if enemy gets cocky or plays wrong with it.
Because right now, there is really not much you can do about it, but to either outplay your opponent\use Stuka or rely on enemy making a somesort of a mistake.
Was thinking about you during an earlier game today. Had double mortars against a Ost turtler 1v1, I got cocky and in the middle of bombarding him he got me with a rifle nade. Mortar survived and retreated while I pushed him back. |
1. considering they suck ass rigth now losing to everything aside from 6 man concripts late game, i think they migth need a 3th one(TigthRope G43 video demonstrates it).
2. agree
3. yep
4. maybe, maybe not
5. migth be a good meme since i think the only commander with both g43 and osttrupen is the one with relief infatry(just imagine 4 g43 osttrupen lol).
1. That video is exactly why I was thinking they need one more, it seems to be decent when you first get it but it falls off fairly fast. Adding one more at BP2 for muni would let the upgrade keep scaling.
4. DP28 is the worst LMG in the game with its properties designed around the original Guards which is why I think they should get hit the dirt also. In most casts I have seen I barely see any top players making more than 1 if they make it at all. I happen to like them they just don't feel like ELITE infantry.
5. Was thinking with 2 G43 they would play differently from the turtle style the LMG Ostrup promote. They wouldn't when many/any fights 1v1 however since the G43 cant be dropped it would promote agressive attacking and holding out as long as possible. So trying to win through agressive attrition. |
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Yea, I feel like it is fairly unique compared to other commanders. Going T2 with mg and mortar for back up should work quite well. I feel you would only need 1 conscript with the upgrade during LV phase so shouldn't hurt you AI too much. If you go T1 you could get a clown car for PTRS shenanigans. |
MortarHT works to some extend, its not a hard counter or meanigfull counter, but works for sure better then regular GwR. It can sustain more punishment from from 120mm themselfs, but its somewhat map dependant, since it still has to get relatively close to the front line to shoot at 120mm and if the map is oppened it might get shot by AT gun\AT inf.
My main complain - I dont like commanders MH is present in. While I have them in loadout for the accasions when I know I wont be able to survive without it, but still not my cup of tea.
As for OKW, fire rounds also work decently well (at least better then regular barrage) but they will bleed your muni really bad in a long run, considering that you will be firing them constantly. And if there is USF\UKF player supporting soviets with forward reinforcement platform or M5 later into the game, they wont do much.
Also the thing is, while both MH\Fire rounds are some what all right, but they wont give you that much of advantage. I mean sure, it will have something to fight 120mm back and soviet player might not be able to completly brain AFK with them. But all this for a cost of picking specific commander early, in order to just give soviet player a nose bleed at best is a so-so chose, if you ask me.
Especially considering that all commanders with 120mm mortar give you something good for early, mid and late game and 120mm itself is not a selling point of the commanders.
Thats my imo.
The other thing that could be worth trying is cloak units like stormtroopers and ambush camo. As OKW i think the only option is Falls however they should be able to wipe them fairly easy. Like others have said before the real issue is 4v4 maps are to small to pull off good flanks. |
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Random shower thoughts about infantry upgrades. I know it is fairly late for changes to be made since the last patch is supposedly the last one.
1. Why is the Gren G43 upgrade only 2 models, why not 3? Maybe the ability to further upgrade at BP2.
2. I see a lot of people complain about SVT conscripts. Most of the issue seems to be around efficiency not DPS of the unit. Why not remove ability to build cover if upgraded with SVT to promote mix of conscript squads so it is no longer a no brainer upgrade.
3.While on the topic of Airborne weapon crate SMG penal could get smoke grenade or "hit the dirt" ability.
4.Why not give LMG airborne guards "hit the dirt"? Seems counter intuitive to give them the same VET1 ability the PPSH squad gets. Suppression allows the PPSH to come in close along with the smoke nade synergizing really well with the purpose of the unit as a stealth/close range squad. Hit the dirt would allow LMG Guards to fulfill there role as soviet elite long range unit.
5. This is a little more out there but each Ostruppen commander gets a different upgrade. One get the Gren G43 upgrade while the other keeps the LMG.
Thoughts? |
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Great game, about 1 hour long wont leave my normal description too much to cover.
Started strong, had most of map and got 1st KV1 around 13-15 mins.
Played to timid when all he had was 1 AT gun and Stug, let him back in.
Got several wipes with FOR MOTHER RUSSIA.
Got to cocky with For Mother Russia and lost a shock troop to grenade.
Lost KV1 to to teller mine, killed 1 of his Stugs with his own teller mine.
Killed his Ostwind with regular satchel that he must not have seen and ran right into.
B4 was fairly useless until the last 15 mins of game. really started to drain his MP.
Thoughts:
I really shouldn't have made more than 2 KV1 at a time, it helped with mp bleed but I couldn't hold on to map control.
He had really good Ostwind play that really tipped the scales his way until I randomly satcheled it.
KV1 forces a lot of AT investment, for my 3 KV1 he needed 3AT guns and 2 STUG to keep me at bay, once I killed the STUGS game was mine. |
I am not saying it should be just as vulnerable to axis indirects as other mortars, what I'm saying that you practically cant counter it with your indirects even if you play right\enemy plays wrong. Even ostheer counter-barrage dont work.
There is a difference in being "hard to counter" and "almost impossible to counter". This problem only leads to the fact that soviet players can get 120mm mortar closer to the frontline, effectively neutralising the fact that its auto-fire range was nerfed. Or if there are mass enemy indirects\inf to stay at safe range and use barrage.
And speaking of situations you've discribed, yes its true that its less effective against blobs, but the problem is that in teamgames soviets already abusing maxims themselfs on a line maps or use penal blobs themselfs into 120mm mortars.
With maxims its self-explanatory, with Penals even if Ostheer\OKW goes full gren\volks build, you just need to stay in cover with your penals and zone volks\grens away from your 120mm, because they cant push penals into close\mid range and 120mm mortar in long fire-fights will eventually hit them.
In vacuum yes, 120mm is vulnerable to flanks and mass inf, but on practice its really hard to get to it. By the time soviets can call-in 120mm mortars both Ost\OKW dont have properly established army to orginize such pushes, which can "just" overhelm. They might be able to out-play soviet player, but its a question of a player skill which is irrelevant on the topic.
And even if you somehow managed to flank and push, soviet player still have 4 models to spare + retreat button on top of it.
Situation is becoming even more ludacris when you add supporting teammates.
I mean sure Panzerwerfers can counter it, Stuka can counter it somewhat, but what difference it makes if you are unchallanged for at least 1\3 of the game (without stuka around for even more). Which on its own just allows you to snowball like crazy.
Just theory crafting, as Ost have you tried making the mortar halftrack. They hit the field at the same time and the halftrack is more mobile so you should be able to keep pressure up. As OKW maybe the fire rounds I know it is doctrinal but it should constantly force the mortar to move which makes it fairly useless. |
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