wongtp - wooof has a great understanding of the mechanics of this game and knows very well how this game works. The problem is that the majority of the community doesn't and it's often hard to discern what they actually mean. If they use the term "destroyed engine" a lot of people mean engine damage. Overall I think both of you tended to misunderstand the other or ignore parts of what he said.
First of all, wooof never said that one should use T34/76 to fight a Panther, but rather tried to explain the values and mechanics behind ramming a Panther. I think the style wasn't great though I can understand him, we worked hard to get an understanding of the game and mechanics. We do not know everything, but a good bit. A lot of people do not know this, but post random numbers or say things work this or that way, even though they are not sure about this. That can easily annoy you a lot. Ignorance, subjectivity and favoritism (real and imagined) are huge problems of the CoH2 community.
Second - I think you still have not completely understood how ram works. At least your previous post showed a lack, so for a better understanding - Upon ramming the following will happen:
If penetration >= armor (which is true for the rear armor of all tanks except IS-2 and Tiger) the target vehicle will get 160 damage and a critical (see below).
If penetration < armor, then with a penetration/armor chance it will be a successful ram (see case above), else it will fail, damage and cause a crew shock.
If the ram is successful a dice is rolled for the outcome. The main gun is always destroyed. With a 70% chance it causes engine damage (.4 movespeed/acceleration), 15% for engine destroyed (.1 movespeed/acceleration) and 15% for immobilized (0 movespeed/acceleration).
A Panther might be able to limp away with a damaged engine, but usually the second T34 can block it off. Still in 30% of all cases with a rear ram and and 17.78% of all cases for a frontal ram it is not able to flee (destroyed engine or immobilized). 17.78% is a lot more than your estimated 5%
Third - Panthers are heavily armored AT vehicles. Trying to fight them with T34 can work, but it's not cost effective. Panthers have a heavy frontal armor, good mobility and a great gun against tanks, yet they are lacking against infantry. A T34, a Con squad and an ATG are worth 280 MP + 85 fuel + 240 MP + 320 MP, totalling a value of 840+85*5 = 1265. A Panther is 520 MP + 145 fuel or a value of 1245. So roughly a Con squad, a T34 and an ATG have the same value as a Panther. Using those 3 in combination (AT nade / ram for disable, ATG for damage) are sufficient to fight a Panther. Soviet Tier 3 is not great in the anti-tank role, but is great to support T2 play (Quad HFT to protect ATG from infantry, T70 for scouting, T34 to chase down or last ditch defense with ram). Using those units alone is not really what they are meant for and will always be subpar to a combined force.
AT nades aren't free. So add up another 25 fuel for research.
Also don't compare t34, cons and ZiS vs 1 panther.
We just agreed that unsupported panthers don't exist. Supporting grens and pios will eat your ZiS and cons alive, and they will Faust T 34 in a matter of second
So your argument is strictly theoretical, fuel calculations are wrong and the whole thing does not work in reality. |
wongtp - wooof has a great understanding of the mechanics of this game and knows very well how this game works. The problem is that the majority of the community doesn't and it's often hard to discern what they actually mean. If they use the term "destroyed engine" a lot of people mean engine damage. Overall I think both of you tended to misunderstand the other or ignore parts of what he said.
First of all, wooof never said that one should use T34/76 to fight a Panther, but rather tried to explain the values and mechanics behind ramming a Panther. I think the style wasn't great though I can understand him, we worked hard to get an understanding of the game and mechanics. We do not know everything, but a good bit. A lot of people do not know this, but post random numbers or say things work this or that way, even though they are not sure about this. That can easily annoy you a lot. Ignorance, subjectivity and favoritism (real and imagined) are huge problems of the CoH2 community.
Second - I think you still have not completely understood how ram works. At least your previous post showed a lack, so for a better understanding - Upon ramming the following will happen:
If penetration >= armor (which is true for the rear armor of all tanks except IS-2 and Tiger) the target vehicle will get 160 damage and a critical (see below).
If penetration < armor, then with a penetration/armor chance it will be a successful ram (see case above), else it will fail, damage and cause a crew shock.
If the ram is successful a dice is rolled for the outcome. The main gun is always destroyed. With a 70% chance it causes engine damage (.4 movespeed/acceleration), 15% for engine destroyed (.1 movespeed/acceleration) and 15% for immobilized (0 movespeed/acceleration).
A Panther might be able to limp away with a damaged engine, but usually the second T34 can block it off. Still in 30% of all cases with a rear ram and and 17.78% of all cases for a frontal ram it is not able to flee (destroyed engine or immobilized). 17.78% is a lot more than your estimated 5%
Third - Panthers are heavily armored AT vehicles. Trying to fight them with T34 can work, but it's not cost effective. Panthers have a heavy frontal armor, good mobility and a great gun against tanks, yet they are lacking against infantry. A T34, a Con squad and an ATG are worth 280 MP + 85 fuel + 240 MP + 320 MP, totalling a value of 840+85*5 = 1265. A Panther is 520 MP + 145 fuel or a value of 1245. So roughly a Con squad, a T34 and an ATG have the same value as a Panther. Using those 3 in combination (AT nade / ram for disable, ATG for damage) are sufficient to fight a Panther. Soviet Tier 3 is not great in the anti-tank role, but is great to support T2 play (Quad HFT to protect ATG from infantry, T70 for scouting, T34 to chase down or last ditch defense with ram). Using those units alone is not really what they are meant for and will always be subpar to a combined force.
AT nades aren't free. So add up another 25 fuel for research.
Also don't compare t34, cons and ZiS vs 1 panther.
We just agreed that unsupported panthers don't exist. Supporting grens and pios will eat your ZiS and cons alive, and they will Faust T 34 in a matter of second
So your argument is strictly theoretical, fuel calculations are wrong and the whole thing does not work in reality. |
No, what OP means by saying "1 T-34 vs 4 PzIV" is that German units are a lot more easy to preserve while soviet tanks and infantry are just disposable crap in its current state. That why it seems that Germans wield bigger armies while Russians run around with like a single T34, single M5 and two squads of poor vanilla cons.
Of course, every player is different which makes every game different to. But most of the games I see Germans overwhelming and outnumbering soviets left and right.
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and also I want to mention that this commander is pretty well balanced and it represents true combined arms style. All units you build help and cover each other.
Cons slow down axis tanks with at nades, while ZiS and t34 finish them up. Should a T34 get damaged, cons can repair it. Should cons and irregulars get wounded - M5 will heal and provide with AA, and so on...
Just build a balanced army of different units with different tasks, and you should be ok. |
I use this commander almost all the time.
BO:
Cons T2 maxim maxim cons muni cache irregular irregular at nade muni cache medics.
Note that it should be TWO maxims, because a single maxim can be easily overwhelmed by overpowered grenadiers. Two maxims cover each other, they suppress more squads etc.
Note that it should be MUNI cache, not fuel one, because you need a lot of fuel for:
RGD-33
PPSH-41 upgrades
AT nades
Mines
Also I never go for T1 because of zero anti tank capabilities. Build ZiS-3 to fight off early vehicles, you should be ok with early mines and early AT nades researched.
With this commander I choose T3 over T4. Once the building is up I build either T-34 if there are bunkers covering choke points or M5 if Germans go G43 fiesta. Since you've built two muni caches in early game, you should have enough munition to upgrade M5 to quad... and here is when the slaughter fest begins.
With two ppsh conscript squads and two LMG irregulars supported by maxims and quad M5 you are a true king of the hill. You can easily beat any infantry you meet (of course micro is required), M5 can heal, and suppress, and protects from skill planes. Throw molotovs and RGD-33 on suppressed Germans and you should win any infantry engagement.
If you see a lot of P4 and scout cars, skip quad M5. Go for double ZIS and double T-34, and have your engeneers lay mines all over the place.
Save 600 mp, and build ML-20.
Of course, it is all situational but I've noticed that if a well skilled team of three goes for Industry, Irregualrs, and Partisans commanders, the chances to win greatly increase.
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When you play with Germans this lag is not an issue at all, just continue the game, you have high chances of winning without any commander anyway. |
You are so full of sh*t it's unbelievable... read my posts, then make assumptions. I play both almost equally, and I still think precision strike is great. And yes, it still wipes when crews/ squads are bunched up together. When it doesn't, heres a little tip: use mortar to shell a weapon team like enemy mortar/ pak. Kill one member. Use precsion strike and kill at least two more members. Voila, weapon decrewed because the fourth member will abandon...
It's because of people like you discussions end up somewhere in the backstreets...
Thanks for advice on how to use a mortar!
I will definitely try next time I play with Soviets! (if I ever play with Soviets) |
Bear you realize 82mm prec strike got a nerf. Honestly guards nade is better IMHO. If they are clearing paks you have really really bad luck. And werfers don't need vet 1 to clear a zis.
No, he doesn't.
People like SS Heine and Bear barely play with soviets, hence they are not aware of changes done long time ago already.
Meine liebe Freunde, precision strike does not kill the entire crew anymore. But what it does is kind of "locking on target" which means that next shells will be dropping at exactly same spot, and if you don't move you pak, mortar, or mg, next shot or two will finish the crew.
Stop bringing in old "over powered" abilities as your argument. |
I think you need to see a doctor... |
The game is ok to play, you get easy victories with Germans due their superior arms, however, it is still possible to win as soviets with tons of good micro applied. |