Really not sure what I'm doing wrong here. It seems I just can't win in 2v2 against brits.
Early game, vickers pin down my grens and can counter garrisoned MGs, due to higher damage vs. structures,and mid/late game their infantry sections just completely outscale grens. Then later on I get into 'counter the churchill' situations, which I simply can't due to lack of resources from early/mid game.
Meanwhile, I'm being constantly hit by artillery from infantry section flares, making defensive setups essentially impossible.
This replay is a pretty good example; especially the first ~20 minutes. It goes on for a lot longer (and ends with a base pin), but it sums up my issues pretty well. |
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New patch seems... decent? Not entirely sure about the new coms at first look; some seem a bit weak, some seem to further infantry power creep, but I'll need to test a bit more to really say.
Assault grens still seem very weak, even at vet 3 + the squad leader upgrade. I was kind of hoping for shock level performance, but it's nowhere near that. They're also not tough enough to close-in from range early game, so they can basically only act as flankers. Interesting unit, but still under performing from what I've seen (compared to allied counterparts).
Still need to try the other docs a bit more.
Balance wise main units seem good; the ostwind is pretty solid, which is a nice change.
Either way, it's always good to see new patches (and content) for the game; good work, everyone involved. |
I'd hope so, the pack howie is a howitzer that takes 3X0 manpower, a side tech, and can't hard retreat compared to a wehr techless 260 manpower unit. Not to mention pretty sure pack howie fires slower than wehr mortar.
If your gren is fighting enemy unit + howie it should lose the engagement not sure why you think otherwise. If they have pack howie they're gonna have a much smaller force due to the cost and teching, you can should be taking advantage of that.
The problem is, the pack howie basically hard-counters all of Ost's units with nearly zero user input. The Ost mortar is good, but as with all IDF units, it's best against static infantry - which USF rarely uses. Every single USF infantry unit, short of M1919 upgraded rifles, can fire on the move with little to no problem. Compare this to Ost, which is based entirely around static units: The MG42 is a core unit (unlike the .50), the Gren LMG needs to be stationary to fire, the early/mid AT role is filled by the PAK (compared to stuart, zooks) due to Muni cost, etc.
To counter all of these units, all the USF player needs to do is sit a pack-howie within range, and let it auto-fire. There's zero player input for an incredible amount of power.
Imagine if OST had a unit that auto-marked nearby moving infantry with +33% RA, forcing allied infantry to remain static; it would be absurdly OP. This is basically how disruptive the Pack-Howie/US-MHT is to OST play, except there's also doing MP-drain.
Also, I had a very similar post about this a week or so ago; there were some good suggestions by others in it: https://www.coh2.org/topic/91307/indirect-auto-fire-vs-ost |
I just said that pak howi and scotts are OP. They are used a lot for a reason now what about Soviet 80 and 120mm mortars? What about leig, USF mortar, Ost mortar, UKF mortars? Instead of demanding nerfs for all indirect fire units it would make 10x more sense to just adjust Pak Howi and Scott instead.
Sorry, somehow missed the comment regarding the scott/pak.
Anyway, as for the other indirect fire units - yes, they all need addressing in order to keep things 'fair' between the factions. My original post suggests this, but also points out that because of OST's 4-man, high cost squads, they are currently the most affected by this issue. |
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Against OST units which need to stay stationary to do any damage (Grens, MG42); yes, exceedingly, especially in 2v2+. It's quite common to see 2 MHTs, 2 scotts, or 2 Pak howitzers in 2v2s in top 200 play against ost, simply because it makes Grens incredibly challenging to use at almost zero 'micro cost'. |
What is this thread about? Mortars have been nerfed recently yet people claim that they are NOW suddenly better than before and break the game?
Camping with lots of mortars was a strat that was used more often a few months ago before the nerfs hit mortars hard. Nowadays no one (good) goes for this anymore.
The only indirect fire units that remain OP are the USF Pak Howi and Scott. All the other units are either balanced or bad.
It's basically about how most indirect fire units still perform incredibly well when auto-firing - i.e. with no player input. And that those auto-fire units are essentially countering OST's core design (stationary damage) with little actual 'skill' involved in their use.
My suggestion in the original post was to lower their auto-fire potential via either ROF or scatter changes (only when auto-firing), but others have brought up other changes which could work. |
It's less the damage and more the unlikely wipes. A slower RoF wouldn't help much with that.
A hit cap like mines and the Ostwind might though. Double the damage but only let it hit two models at once. Then three man squads are safe from one hit indirect wipes.
While I agree with the part of this, I don't think a model-cap would fix it. The problem isn't entirely the unlikely wipes; it's getting grens down to 50-60% HP (but with all 4 models still up) that leaves them incredibly vulnerable to infantry pushes, due to WFA's incredibly high infantry DPS. That said, the RNG wipes would be nice to see gone.
this is not "vs ost" problem...
ALL INDIRECT FIRE ARE BROKEN AS HELL since a few patches ago. I never had too much trouble before the whole formation overhaul stuff since I was always a good micro player, but all the whiny kids that a-move all the time cried to much that relic made this awful system that rewards sitting behind 3 mortars and winning the game without doing anything.
I play team games a lot and generally the team that has more mortars/light guns is the one who wins.
Indirect fire does affects all teams, but I think ost is hit most by it. All the other factions (possibly except brits) have mobile mainline infantry (double bars, STGs, PPSHs, etc.); Ost/Brits NEED to remain static to be effective. I think the problem affects ost the most, though, simply due to the smaller model counts. |
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One of the common topics brought up lately seems to be the issue of Ost's Gren performance vs other mainline infantry (and as a result, Ost's performance as a whole). This issue seems to be portrayed as grens lacking dps compared to WFA double-upgraded units, their high reinforce cost, low model count, or a number of other perceived issues many have suggested. Higher-skill players will respond that grens aren't supposed to go 'head-to-head' against other mainline infantry, and instead should be used to cover/screen for your support units (MG, Mortar, etc.). I believe this to be the case; however, there is a core problem that grens have when attempting to perform this roll, especially against the WFA (brit/US) factions: Indirect auto-fire.
In general, for grens to perform their best, they need to stay in a static position, similar to the MG42 they are covering for. However, this makes them incredibly vulnerable to indirect fire, be it from mortar HTs, M8A1s, Pack Howitzers, Mortar Pits, 81mm mortars, etc. Due to this, the current situation for Grens is that they cannot perform in their role as intended. Staying stationary is not possible due to indirect fire, but moving isn't a choice either, as the LMG42 can't be used on the move.
My complaint isn't that these indirect fire units are effective - they should be, since they're required to dislodge static OST/OKW players. My complaint is that all of these units are incredibly effective with very little user input. The mortar pit will auto-barrage a very large area with two mortars, the M8A1s can accurately auto-fire even when on the move, and all the other indirect fire units perform quite well when left alone.
A solution to this problem could be quite simple: lower the auto-fire performance of indirect fire units. Effectively, their performance would remain identical when the player is actually using them via either attack ground OR barrage, but it would result in a higher 'micro tax' to use them effectively in combat. While I'm no expert on unit stats, I think the easiest ways to implement this would be either to lower the rate of fire when auto-firing by 25-33%, or increase the scatter on auto-fire so that the auto-fired rounds are much less accurate (again 25-33%).
While I think the main issue is the performance of these units vs OST, I wouldn't be opposed to making these changes global, so to increase the required micro for all factions.
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Could be interesting as a vet 3 upgrade, but other than that, no. It would either be far too powerful, or the nerfs required to balance it would make G43s simply better in almost every situation.
Nooooooooooooooooooooo. We need more take position and use cover units not less. This is supposed to be a Tactical Real Time Strategy game not an "arm and attack move your do everything mainline infantry" game.
If that's the case, we really need to address the low micro auto-fire units most allied teams have that seem to counter this play style.
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At this point, it's basically a required change. Grens, even at Vet 3 w/ LMG don't compete with other factions late game infantry in terms of firepower, let alone ability to survive.
There was another thread awhile ago discussion the power-creep in the game, and there were some pretty valid points. WFA infantry is just so much more powerful than what the game was initially designed around (grens vs. cons), and now both those units are incredibly weak by comparison. Add to that the whole "grens need to be stationary to do damage, but there's mortars/PAK- owitzers/etc." and you've got a squad that can't perform its intended task (defensive, static ranged damage).
I'd vote for either a +1 model somewhere (vet 3? Tech 3/4?) or a change the squads 'on-the-move' performance, to allow them to not be hit by a dozen mortars the second they set up the LMG. Maybe a double-upgrade LMG34 that clones the BARs performance (fire on the move).
Alternatively (and completely unrealistically) there could be a drastic change to Rifles/IS/Penals/Volks to render Grens/Cons competitive again (remove double upgrades for Rifles/IS, -1 model to penals, remove vet 4/5 for volks). |
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Doomlord52
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
