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Thread: Winter Balance Preview Changelog29 Nov 2016, 04:09 AM Jump back to quoted post28 Nov 2016, 20:44 PMImagelessbean PG's with G43's is a tough nut to crack. Does giving all of them G43's (as Machine suggested) work? The idea of a sniper squad was really nice, but predictably unfair, but good thinking to try. Could PG's with G43's also be offered an activated suppression ability at some munition cost? This would help them in their role of AI and infantry flanking, while also providing a more nuanced way to upgrade their power. [Thinking something along line of G43 from COH1] Hey I like the increased sight range. Range > * And it depends on which version of G43? Originally the G43 suppression only slowed movement. I pushed like mad in 2.602 for G43s to apply actual suppression, which they did, although I am still of the opinion it should've been like BAR suppression. But the point and click one squad pin fit the whole style of PE. In: Lobby
Thread: Winter Balance Preview Changelog29 Nov 2016, 03:31 AM Jump back to quoted post28 Nov 2016, 05:20 AMTheMachine It also sounds like you haven't played the mod, I encourage you to do so and I'm sure you'll see for yourself it plays out much better than you realise. Except I had... I know you are thrilled about what you're working on, just like I love all the changes I made in my mods, but I really don't expect anyone to share that sentiment with me. There's actually a lot more changes to the USF Mortar than the notes display. Due to a few issues with the USF Mortar, we started again from scratch with a new unit which is a clone of the Wehrmacht Mortar. Fromt he Wehrmacht Mortar, it then has the changes noted in the patch notes. This means that on top of what is listed, the USF Mortar has a slower barrage speed and it doesn't get the scatter bonus at vet 1, which was probably the strongest thing about it. That's unclear. The only real discernible difference I saw from my tests were the shortened range so it's not like I could take that knowledge into account with what I was seeing. You may know exactly what has been changed and what to look for as a result, but those of us trying to test it and provide feedback aren't going to know that. We actually experimented with the PPSH change at first but decided not to go with it. Firstly Relic didn't like this change as it was cut from the May Balance Preview as it overlapped with Shock Troops. But secondly it was a liability for close quarters combat maps, of which there is now a lot. PPSH upgrade would have either been a thing worthless in most maps and then overpowered in some such as Rustwork Essen, Caen, Bryansk Forest etc. It was a risk we didn't want to go with. DP's would probably make penals even stronger, and would overlap with Guards. You have to remember that Penal Rifles are incredibly powerful, it's not like Conscripts where you're upgrading from weak rifles, so by giving them a munitions upgrade, it would have to make them even stronger which is the opposite of our intention. That's fair, although it's worth pointing out that there's considerable overlap between stock units and doctrinal units. Also, if the point of this patch is to make more viable choices, then assuming a Guards commander outright is rather self defeating. And I am furthermore very aware of how powerful SVTs are. Which is why they might mitigate the power of a stationary LMG so that it might not be as considerable a buff. You've got to remember that not all criticism comes from a place of ignorance. I would also suggest not to balance a faction around the supposed imbalances of maps. Maps come after faction design. And the metagame comes after both. Don't rule options out because of what comes after the faction. And ya'll should certainly not be trying to balance based on the metagame or worse yet, trying to predict the meta and make preemptive adjustments. And in May, those PPShes were on top of the flamethrowers, which was indeed overkill. There's a lot more to it than just that, as many of the other changes in the mod directly help this. Penals are Guards will no longer be outscaling Grenadiers and the Light Tank nerfs will greatly help Wehrmacht infantry stay alive into the late game so Wehrmacht aren't behind on squads. Riflemen are also losing double M1919's, and they are also getting a nerf to their vet 3 Received accuracy bonus. This one accidentally wasn't documented in the change notes (my bad) but it's definitely in there. So Grenadiers and Panzer Grenadiers will definitely be scaling a bit better. Okay, I get that, but the issue with Wehrmacht scaling in the lategame isn't that they can't get to the lategame, it's that once they get there they lose the war of attrition through instagib squad wipes. In my experiences in game and from countless discussions on these forums are how regardless of vet, grens get gibbed in the lategame because they clump up in cover and while pathing for every shell that comes their way. It's always been about keeping them alive in the late game more than getting them there. It was only very recently that this attrition began at t0. Fixing that issue still won't address lategame wehrmacht scaling. But one thing that could happen and that could be tested would adjusting cover search radius on squads. Just a thought. Those are the sorts of things that are most advantageous to test with these preview patches, IMO. Regarding British, we had some changes in mind to do with Double Brens, but to prevent double Brens it required some other changes to compensate which were out of scope and cut by Relic. We are working on ways to try and include this in a more concise way so we can get this through. But ultimately there is lots of other underlying causes as to why Wehrmacht infantry are weak, but they were lots of other issues that requires some big changes which were out of scope for this small-scale and limited patch. This includes things like Demos, Rocket Arty, HE SHermans, Pershings, Cromwells, Comets etc. And that's the thing. While it is unfortunate that the scope of this patch is so limiting, I understand that you're probably all very eager to make changes. But for both of these reasons ya'll should try to produce a few testable changes that people can feasibly test and respond to. Don't go nuts making changes just for the sake of making changes. In: Lobby
Thread: Disable team share of fuel and munitions caches27 Nov 2016, 21:09 PM Resources for team matches aren't really well thought out considering the maps that team matches occur on. Tiered resource points would go a LONG way to improving team matches as far as map design goes. Likewise, income really should be split/shared between teams. This would allow for team games to have more territory points to accommodate the players without exploding resource incomes. Otherwise at the very least having, say, a few +3 or +4 fuel points or a couple +7 munitions points to work with might make the large team maps not suck so hard. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Winter Balance Patch: Wrong Direction?27 Nov 2016, 21:04 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2016, 20:23 PMVuther You mean CoH1's stickies? Maaaannnnn those would be hard to use with Penal's Satchels' range. Riflemen practically had to get into Penal Satchel range in the first place to ensure they would get to throw it if the vehicle was moving at all, compared to CoH2's "If firing animation starts, it will hit". Precisely. It was a great mechanic that worked quite beautifully. I've been sad to see no equivalent and the prevalence of easy-fire snares. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Winter Balance Patch: Wrong Direction?27 Nov 2016, 18:18 PM The RIGHT direction: Satchel Charges may target vehicles. Behavior to mimic sticky bombs. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: A survey about the new 22227 Nov 2016, 17:49 PM Well, the 222 rose to prominence after it got the health boost, but it didn't actually have an effective role until the advent of super Allied mortars, be it the USF mortar or UKF mortar pits. (You know the lessons NOT learned from the old soviet 120mm, which created the exact same gorramned situation.) The 222 became Ostheer's best bet to handle light vehicle rushes because Allied indrect fire invalidates MG play, which makes it impossible to hold a PAK position. In many cases the mortars themselves prove to be more than enough for both the MGs AND the ATGs. The more changes are made to the 222 to try and address specific issues with the meta, the less chance we're going to see a solution that works, IMHO. The damned unit is a scapegoat for the greater design issues. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Winter Balance Preview Changelog27 Nov 2016, 17:39 PM Light Tanks/Vehicles I think these have been extremely powerful for only the Allied factions due to recent changes to Allied factions. Light vehicles dominatation was entirely symptomatic to OKW losing panzerschrecks and Ostheers MG being roflcountered by the USF mortar. (Which made it impossible to defend PAK positions, eliminating all vehicle counterplay outside of 222s... And so you start to see the pattern.) Nerfing the light vehicles is just addressing the water damage without fixing the leak. Squad Formations & Clumping Functionally unaddressed. The formations that the squads are trying to get to may be better, but the issue is with general pathing and how infantry interact with objects and calculate routes around them. What's causing units to clump and forgo sensible squad basing has nothing to do with their formation in open cover. Units phasing into each other don't spread out into formation when they are told to stop or given an order to attack. I guess what I'm saying is that squad formation is about destination, rather than what kind of spacing they'll take while moving. USF Mortar Less range is one way of handling things I guess. Thing is just as lethal and now is a bit more mobile. If the mortar has trouble invalidating MGs so rifles can't freeroam onto any and all PAK positions then I'd consider it fixed. Penals & Guards Removing flamethrowers is not a bad move, but it kinda leaves a void. I like that it opens up conscript molotovs more for anti-garrisons, but I feel that Penals need some kind of upgrade to put them into either into a long range (DP-28) role or short range (PPsh) role. Of all the changes this seemed the most appropriate, if not the most negligible. The changes to Guards make no sense to me. Personally the only issue with Guards was that they couldn't get the PTRS back. IMO they should've always arrived without PTRS and had a 50 or 60 muni upgrade to get (and replace) them if need be. Wehrmacht Infantry Scaling ... Accomplished by making medkits heal for longer? I really don't understand how anyone thinks this was even addressed, let alone fixed. The issue with Wehrmacht infantry is that fully healed squads drop models too quickly. Focusing fire onto four man squads is resoundingly more effective than focus firing onto 5 and 6 man squads. Either the units need to balanced to take this into account, or we can continue this charade of balancing squads around the entities within them. Grenadiers tend to have to deal twice the amount of damage before an enemy squad has to think about retreating. Med packs to heal the 1 or 2 remaining entities after a battle won't change that at all. Alternately I still have yet to hear a convincing argument for a T4 Bolster Squad upgrade for Grenadiers only. Having grens just be 5 man 280mp squads out the door is certainly imbalanced, but the best I've heard against it is that a T4 bolster squad would just be another investment ostheer couldn't afford. In: Lobby
Thread: Winter Balance Preview Changelog27 Nov 2016, 16:51 PM Well the Stuart meta was a direct result of OKW losing schrecks on Volks. It was further solidified by USF getting a mortar (that in the patch at least has less range.) that shut down MGs, which made it impossible to protect PAKs. (If the mortar didn't wipe the PAK crew outright.) There's a crap ton of changes that are reacting to symptoms here. In: Lobby
Thread: PSA: Sniper stealth in the Balance Preview Patch27 Nov 2016, 16:43 PM Point is: Sniper stealth is not intuitive. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Winter Balance Preview Changelog27 Nov 2016, 04:28 AM Jump back to quoted post26 Nov 2016, 04:21 AMTheMachine The formation changes fix squad spacing when squads are out in the open, it is quite noticeable. Unfortunately, given the limitations of the mod tools, there is nothing we can do to fix the way that squads clump when they enter and exit cover. So ya'll aren't given any more access to the game outside of mod tools? That's... Kind of dooming the effort to fail. Or at least undermining it to say the least. When the problems that need fixing (and people want to see fixed) aren't allowed to be fixed, there's not going to be the best of receptions for all your efforts. In: Lobby