The main focus seems making the commanders "thematically fitting"
The synergy in revamped commanders seems to be mods last concern honestly, just like they don't really care about keeping """non basic""" units (anything that isn't mainline, mediums, TD, mortar, mg and a few light vehicles...so basically any unit that isn't included in the straightforward cross-faction build order) viable in balance patches.
I mean, can someone really give me a solid reason that explains why we need Stormtroopers in a doctrine that grants Panzergrens with passive and offensive buffs for 30 munitions ?
What is supposed to be the purpose of a doctrinal at gun with ai ability IN THE ONLY SINGLE FACTION that gets the only non doc at gun with an ai ability ?
What is supposed to be the point of m3 halftrack when wc51 can now capture, mount a buffed 50 cal, transport troops, use mark target and drop heavy arty in THE ONLY faction THAT HAS ALREADY a mobile NON DOC reinforce and heal truck ?
It's flawed, and the fact that we have a doctrine that has been in the revamp patch II times only proves it.
I can't comment on behalf of anyone else but I've personally always tried to design things to be both "thematically fitting" as you said and practical at the same time.
For example my idea of the Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers (who could be upgraded with flamethrowers giving an alternative option to the 250 with flame projectors) in the 250 Halftrack is the practical part of my suggestion while the Antenna upgrade is the "thematically fitting" part, with which I honestly see no problem with, it does it's job practically while still fitting into the doctrine's overall theme.
Well, i think it would be worth a test to give "overwatch" the 223 instead of "early warning". That would be a nice buff but the radio car need some adjustments too. It was only build in only 1 game (Theodosios). I think it should come out earlier to make a difference in combat. My suggestion would be to make it a CP1 /CP2 call-in. The upgrade could be more expensive then. And it should definitely give your teammates resources too.
If you wanna make the 223 a unique unit for a certain commander, then we could talk about moving the 223 to "Overwatch" (replaces Early warning) and giving Elite armor the new 251 (maybe with Pzgrens).
That works too.
The problem is keeping the radio ability which the 223 replaces in Elite Armor.
But apart from that yeah, Panzergrenadiers or Panzerfusiliers in either a 250 or 251 works, but if it's the 251 I think it's a better option for it to come open-topped because I don't believe they'll give it the same flame projector upgrade.
Edit: Maybe an Urban Assault Panzergrenadier squad in a 250 that can upgrade with an antenna to receive the radio ability combat group and then the 223 can be moved to Overwatch.
250 ht still feels underwhelming and not worth over hellfire 251.
It's suppression may be useful but an MG42 is still a much better choice that can retreat and can't be countered by atg.
-KEEP the changes to all ht doctrine but replace the 250 with another unit or ability. 250ht would be a valuable addition to OKW since they lack a proper infantry transport and a powerful suppression platform (no, opel truck is a joke)
That's the reason why I suggested it for Overwatch doctrine, albeit with an upgrade to an Antenna as well, like the 223, so it can fill in a Recon role to fit in better with the commander, but even without it I think it would still be useful like you said. The Jaegers coming in it could easily be turned into a combat group or something.
Overwatch indeed needs a serious rework because its still MEH. I'd be very disappointed if after this commander revamp (awesome btw, nice job) we still have this as a never used commander. I think this commander could be fixed turning it into a defensive doc.
Problems with commander are:
-Lefh needs to be replaced with different thing.
-Goliath are still a troll unit not worth it besides a lucky shot (or if you are not vonIvan). I can't barely see a solution between goliaths been UP or OP. So perhaps best idea (as some people said) is make them come with an ability (tellers to sturms).
-For the father land its a bit meh too plus its a munition cost ability to a commander (if changed and according to the suggestions AT Strafe, tellers...) gonna be heavily muni based. Dunno how to aproach the change to be honest buff it or change to a new passive ability.
-Jaeger light infantry its still too weak. I'd lower it to 1CP or require a tech estructure (medic or mech truck) so you can get use of if it earlier.
Fortifications is already the OKW's Defensive Doctrine, if this is turned into another version the same complaints about the Ostheer Defensive doctrine will arise that they're too similar to each other, but the problem for the OKW is that it's limited in terms of options because of it's 8 commanders (soon to be 9) compared to the Ostheer's 18/19.
Plus it already has the theme of a "Recon" sort of doctrine, I'd say just go with that. But instead of turning it into the German counterpart of the USF Recon Company base it off of the German "Aufklärungsabteilung" or in English, Recon detachment which every Panzer Division had.
It was lightly armed/equipped, fast and mobile. That's the idea behind the Jagers I think, being Recon infantry, and my suggestion of the 223/250 with Radio antennas is there to help them out with that.
My other idea was to give the ability to the sWS-s to pack up and move to put emphasis of the mobility and speed of the light Recon detachment. The Radio officer I also mentioned is another thing that would probably make a good replacement of the LeFH.
I meant manpower. EDITED
That's my point, its there to fill other roles adding to the options of the faction but also fills current available roles overshadowing other units. My problem is not that it can reinforce but does a little of everything and maybe better than other units (referring to normal halftrack w/o flame projectors - that thing is never used as for reinforcing).
- HMG team is weak against AI, not against AT, it can garrison buildings. It's role, suppress infantry. Same roles different options.
- If you want to flank asap with your infantry instead of 222 now you can. Again, you have the option.
- You want to move your units around for decap/cap or harass without risking the squad to AI now you can. Ostheer doesn't have non-doctrinal open topped platforms so that's a new option.
- With vet 1 you can reinforce too. An alternative to the halftrack w/o flame projectors (you can also fit a pio squad with flamethrower - not as strong but its another option)
Agreed doctrinal units should give you more options or specialized options or fill a non existent role. But the HMG halftrack does everything that's my complaint.
It's perfect then, you can use the 250 as a Panzerschreck bus because it's open topped and reinforce and the 251 for it's flame projectors.
I would honestly never use dig in and don't even see any reason for it when I have the best MGs in the game at my disposal.
Edit: Lockdown vehicles are just a pain in the ass in general, I often forget that even my Ambulances is in lockdown when I order it to move, add to that the non-existent animations for it as well and yeah...
Edit2: Talking about lockdown of vehicles that might need to move at some point, it's not such a big deal for the Opel Blitz, 223 or let's say the PE's Hummels from CoH since you're not going to be moving those vehicles a lot anyhow.
Only played against PC and tested with cheatcommands. That being said, my thoughts as of 1.7:
GERMAN INFANTRY DOCTRINE
- Artillery Field Officers - Manpower
- Tactical Movement - Muni
- Relief Infantry - Muni
- Light Artillery - Muni
- Fragmentation Bombs - Muni
Halftrack - Manpower, Fuel
VSL - Muni (one time upgrade with indirect manpower cost)
Stormtroopers - Muni
Assault and Hold - Muni
Fragmentation Bombs - Muni
First of. The problem about this commander before was it lacked any appeal, strong point, or working tactic within the commander abilities. Munition starved with no power in early, mid or late game. It was considered the worst commander of all and it didn't achieved any cool concept/tactic for the german infantry that couldn't be achieved with other more capable commanders. So this one wasn't meta or competent material it was just a waste of space so please don't buff it to meta level make competent enough and fun to play with.
NEW COMMANDER ABILITIES
250 Halftrack HMG
- Mobile shooting platform like SU Scout Car. (like it).
- Being a mobile HMG for suppression requiring setup. (like it)
- Vet 1 Reinforcement platform. (not great)
Increase infantry mobility, harassing potential and also helps against enemy infantry either as defense or for ambushes.
What i don't like is that it does way too much stuff. Using it as a reinforcement platform displaces even more the normal 251 halftrack which is already rarely seen as for reinforcing even in team games and would make more sense with this commander than any other. Also, the 250 halftrack fits more with a "mechanized commander" concept than an infantry one but i can live with that.
- 5 men squad grenadiers.
- locks lmg upgrade.
- adds a g43
- makes medkit free.
- 5 men pioneers.
- doesnt lock flamethrower or wirecutter/minesweeper
- Panzergrenadiers "support package" (gives this unit a lot of utility):
"Rudimentary Repairs": Can repair vehicles.
"Combined Arms": Sprint and reduced accuracy when vehicles are near.
This commander ability gives you just way too much stuff. "Recon Overflight" ability gave you just that, Recon, but that enabled a lot of possibilities and tactical opportunities making it more organic.
Also, as other people mentioned, while cool in concept, panzergrenadier combined arms screams "mechanized". I'll save the panzergrenadier upgrade as another ability for other commander or the new one but it doesn't fits infantry that much. Aside from that i like the fifth men squad in grens and pios and the commander should synergies more with that special ability.
I don't think it fits thematically either. Stormtroopers are more of a disruption thing but nevermind i'm ok with it. Assgrens fit more but they also overlap with panzergrens as a close range combatant and now with 5 men squad pios and they are somewhat of a manpower bleed something that surely will be a cons of this commander. So not sure about it. On a side note, Stormtrooper Panzershreck upgrade mess-up with the hotkey (G) for "throw fire grenade" since its used for "attack ground" with the panzershreck.
Assault and Hold
Like the idea but i don't see any impact whatsoever when active.
Can kill team weapons crews that then can be manned with upgraded grenadiers/pios without leaving them with just 1 squad member.
Like the overall idea of the commander, way more fleshed out than the original one. One thing though (I know its not popular but...) Relief infantry makes more sense thematically and also synergies with fifth men squads. Outstruppen from "Relief" will benefit also of "Assault and Hold".
Something like these will make more sense IMO:
- Halftrack (no reinforce).
- Veteran Squad Leaders.
5 men grenadier (free medkits).
5 men pios.
- Relief Infantry.
- Assault and Hold.
- Fragmentation Bombs.
My two cents.
off-topic p.d.: German "Battlephase" upgrades have different hotkeys (B, G and T) i dont get why is that way, it should be just "B" for all 3 (maybe a technical restriction?).
Stormtroopers also cost manpower, not just muni.
And the 250 is still a Halftrack, it just doesn't make sense for me for a Halftrack not to be able to reinforce, especially a doctrinal one.
And I don't see the comparison of it to the 251 making sense, this is again a doctrinal open topped vehicle and it fills an entirely different role to the 251, so what if it can reinforce as well? So since it also has an MG it's even more similar? Give me a break.
It gives the player an option, it's what it's designed to do, doesn't matter if it shares some similarities with other such vehicles.
Going by that logic some Armies shouldn't even have support weapons or medium tanks then, and we all know how that turned out.
Pioneer 5-man is already more than enough for repair speed, having PzGrens also repair is overkill as there would already be better squads for the job available earlier and for cheaper.
Methinks the best way to keep the combined arms ability is to replace a lackluster ability with the Panzer IV F1 that emits a passive combined arms that applies to Panzergrenadiers. It also adds late game to the commander. I would happily give up 250 to see the PzIV Infantry Support Tank.
All in all though the Panzergrenadier stuff is uncalled for and doesn't seem to fit the infantry theme. Panzergrenadier changes tend to imply a mechanized theme: why would an infantry doctrine have better coordination with vehicles than mechanized? Transferring its ideas over to other core infantry units is the more elegant solution. In my suggestion, all of the Panzergrenadier changes have been incorporated in some way within other units with the exception of the field repair, which like I already stated is overkill.
Ostheer is a very repair deprived Army, up until this point their sole repair capabilities were in the hands of the Pioneers and that was the end of it.
Looking at the Soviets and the amount of options they have to repair in terms of commanders makes me think that there is nothing wrong with giving options to the player.
Many people have also said that Mech Company is also overkill with the amount of light vehicles it now has and it's entirely out of the question to see all of them in a 1v1 game but that's again left up to the player.
So all in all the utility given to the PGs in the end doesn't hurt anyone really and just provides the player with some more options at his disposal. As for how it fits in the doctrine, PGs are still infantry so I guess you can say that they are entitled to get something out of the bargain, doesn't matter if they're supposed to be supporting tanks. If we're going into semantics they're also supposed to be either motorized or mechanised, meaning only coming on the field in either trucks or Halftracks which they don't.
But I agree with you about the F1 Pz IV, if you go back to about the middle pages I think you can see my suggestion of replacing the Arty officer with it as well for some additional late game presence from the commander. I had the Tiger as a suggestion before that but the F1 made more sense because it was a dedicated infantry support tank, similar to the StuG E but not exactly, plus it further added something new to the table.
Speaking of the 250 tho, would be awesome for Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers to come in it as a mechanised combat group lol.
Looking at what the Panzergrenadiers get from Squad Leaders maybe it's a better idea to tailor the abilities which are given from this instead of giving both Grenadiers and Pioneers a 5th man.
Somebody mentioned something about buffing pioneer repairs and giving them an AT rifle upgrade instead of their 5th man, maybe that would be better since I see many people here saying that 5 man flame Pioneers are too effective?
Grenadiers... I don't know, it's weird being locked out of the MG42 for some reason. So perhaps like others have suggested making the 5th man upgrade worthwhile with a Grenade Assault or something would be the best course of action.
Panzergrenadiers stay the same I suppose? I really love the fact that they can repair and get the combined arms type ability which I also suggested. 5th man I guess wouldn't hurt them but then again it would probably be downright OP.
Stormtroopers I feel like should also benefit from the upgrade somehow seeing as they're in the same doctrine but just adding a 5th man doesn't feel right.
Maybe make the Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers into an upgrade and give it to them instead?
Then you'd have the option of free MP40s, or for 40/60 or more ammo MP40s, plus a flamethrower and survival training? Or just survival training and a 5th man I don't know. but if the Pioneers get an AT rifle package making the Stormtroopers be even better close quarter combat troops sounds like a good way of tailoring the commander ability for them.
Maybe rename it to "Infantry Specialization" then? Or "Advanced Infantry Training", something along those lines sounds like a good fit for the ability.
I think it's a better idea to just add more artillery options to existing doctrines instead of focusing all of the Artillery into one which makes it preferable over all others like Fortifications is right now in the live version of the game.
Like for example making the Sturmtiger into an SPG, that gives an existing doctrine an artillery option without the need to create something new altogether.
Alright folks, let's discuss in a constructive manner and not bash each other.
You mean pick a side and censor me.