Anybody have any success with flamers on RE? Is it worth it for blobs or only for dealing with garrisons? |
Has anyone else noticed friggen Grens out preforming Infantry Sections? Wehrmacht's budget unit is killing a much more expensive unit and one that UKF depends on. Wehraboo whinning destroyed a once fun faction, sad.
I've done some limited testing and found that the lmg gren and 2xbren tommy match up depends on the vet level. I'm talking about both squads in green cover, engaging at long range. I can't remember who wins at what level but the point is that its not clear cut as one would expect with tommies only really excelling at long range and being the more expensive investment.
Unfortunately, 2xbren Tommies now loose to most upgraded units when out of the comfort zone of long range and in cover. |
I've been running some tests on UKF units to get a better feel about their performance in contrast to their axis counter parts, the following are results I found surprising.
- 17pdr
Tested it numerous times just to be sure, but the 17pdr will loose to the axis super heavies (KT, JT, elephant) every time as RNG has a minimal effect in the fight. The reason it looses is its slow rate of fire and lower HP pool compared to the heavies. This changes at vet2 when the 17pdr gets a 30% fire rate increase. Most people don't seem to know this and stay out of its range or wont to risk the heavy taking too much damage.
Conversely the pak43 will always wins against axis super heavies due to it not being a structure and higher base fire rate.
- Comet
Its no small secret that the comet is underperforming, but its expected to at least perform better at anti-infantry than the panther. Testing however shows that the panther (with pintle MG) kills infantry faster than a comet simply because the mgs are better, while the comets mgs are weak and the main gun misses a lot. Sometimes the comets gets a lucky hit against a clumped squad but thats rare and unreliable. Tested at medium range and not taking into account abilities of the comet.
- Tommies
They took a massive hit with the bren nerf and now are weak against getting overrun. While inf combat is very RNG based, here are scenarios for which it is more likely that double bren tommies will loose. Tests do not include using abilities.
- Pgrens advancing to zero range against tommies in green cover, pgrens win but take heavy loses.
- Grens with lmg, at long range, both behind green cover. *This fight is vet dependent but I can't remember off the top of my head, in which order it goes - need to test again.
- Obers with lmg/IRstg44 will aways win.
Needless to say, tommies will loose more often than not out of cover against all upgraded inf except against Osttruppen.
I'll be testing other unit matchups and I'll post updates here.
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Its no secret that Brits are in a difficult spot for two main reasons; their poor design that creates large holes in its capabilities and having a number of junk/poorly performing units.
Fixing the design to plug the holes will be a tricky one and will require a good deal of rework.
Fixing the poorly performing units however, will go a long way towards giving the Brits more options and should be the first place to start. Get the full roster up to par and then we can think about possible changes options. |
Hi HoverBacon
Thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated.
The new patch has certainly means that more diverse unit composition is required in order to make any head way with Brits but the glaring holes in their design continue to make then tricky to use.
Your strats are certainly interesting and I imagine them working well in 1v1 or 2v2, but the reliance on the UC (which can be great in the right situation) is a problem in team games. UC usually gets shutdown quickly by either a quick racketen, gren faust (who's range is way too long) or magic bullets. If the opponent is dumb enough to not get any of those, then the UC can have a whale of a time. Good players will know how to deal with the UC making it effectively useless a lot of the time. Have had some success with double brits spamming UC which just overwhelm the axis positions, but its a gamble and more of a cheese tactic.
As for garrisons, its fine for tommies, if no sturmpios are around. but I find that the best strat for the vickers is to keep it outside of garrisons as currently they are just death traps. Having the HMG sitting out in the open works much better against mortars and flames nades and if the crew gets wiped, you can still recover the gun. Keeping HMG's alive till the late game is massive challenge but still your best bet towards controlling axis murder blobs.
Speaking of which, dealing with axis inf blob is a problem, as you don't have the luxury of rocket arty to punish blobbing. I find that fully upgraded tommies just don't cut the bacon towards the later game and it gets especially bad with vetted up gren, volks and obers, which just lazer through every thing. I've instead had more success with relying on commandos as main line inf instead but its tricky and situational.
A mortar pit deep in the back lines will make a big difference with the smoke ability, I've started building them more often than not, but its still very much map dependent. While mortar pit use will always be controversial for both sides, the one thing I think it could do with is the ability to deconstruction it, once the front lines change.
One piece of advice I can give is to steal any and all team weapons when you get the chance, including allies (if they don't intend to recrew). MG42 is way better at controlling blobs and the magic bullets are well, magic. Better are mobile mortars, the ability to smoke or barrage where needed makes all the difference to Brits. Steal everything!
I've not yet tried to rush out a churchill as I normally get a Centaur or Cromwell depending on what the axis have been up to. A centuar is a absolute requirement if reacon planes are spammed, crommie used if they rush for a rocket arty or a problematic flame HT or luch running around.
Churchill is good bang for buck, and good for storming lines when it first appears or it there is a single AT gun around but I think you drum up the churchill to be more effective than it actually is. More than two guns will put you on the retreat, and its does end up being a bit out of its league more towards the late game when there a few panthers and jp4's with a bit of vet (Speaking from team game perspective of course) so I never have more than one.
Spamming fireflies seems to be the only option you have in the late game, mainly because you have no other choice thats effective and stands a chance of surviving.
AT guns gets wiped all day long by arty, offmaps or anrgy mobs while a 17pdr doesn't stand a snow flakes chance in hell in a team game against competent players. Fun fact, a jagtiger, elephant and KT all take the 17pdr on head on and always win. 17pdr only wins when it gets to vet2.
Getting arty superiority is very difficult in team game, not unless you have good USF and SOV players on your side who get reacon/offmap combos and are prepared to tank dive to deal with rocket arty. OKW spamming flares is an on going headache and I have not real counter to it, other than to run away whenever you happen to notice the flares. |
Both valentine and IRHT have a range of 120. ("the grass is always greener on the other side of fence")
Interesting, was the Valentine's search range changed at some point, as I always remember it being shorter than the IRHT? |
An update on the use of Valentines concentrated Sexton barrage (Vet 1 ability, equivalent of victor target from COH1). I tested this ability to try get a feel for how useful it might be. Here are some key features which might not have been obvious.
- Ability's cast range is relatively short, I estimated it to about 45 range. This course will put the valentine in harms way, meaning clever approach and liberal use of smoke is needed.
- It drops three red flare markers, making it painfully obvious that a barrage is incoming.
- The range extension the Sexton gets from the ability is not unlimited and appears to be about 35 more than the vet0 range of Lefh.
- Difficult to comment on the scatter at this max range, but the low aoe profile of the sexton make it kinda non-threatening and it would be difficult to destroy buildings. Seems more of area denial type.
Other comments:
- Smoke is defiantly your friend for this unit, it just can't be used while in scan mode.
- The anti-infantry power of this unit is very bad and I'm sure the AEC does a better job at killing inf. It's co-axial mg has a very short burst, while the main gun is inaccurate.
Edit: grammar
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you dont compare a low range stuka with a much longer range mobile arty unit...or? on most 2v2 maps you can stay with the prist or sexton in your own base to bomb the enemy base...while your stuka must come near to front to hit the front...or must stay in the middle to attack the enemy base.
and your lefs cant move or stay in base. think about it.
The Sexton is not the same as the Priest and are not comparable. Please refer to Firesparks posted stats to get a better idea of the difference. The Sexton range is almost the same as the Stuka if I'm not mistaken, but I can't find any specific values online - Firesparks or Vipper do you have the Stuka's range?
The Stuka has numerous advantages over the Sexton, which was already discussed in a previous thread: https://www.coh2.org/topic/70753/okw-stuka-balance-possibly-op/page/2
Well for 1, any static arty piece can be insta deleted by offmaps like IL2 bombing runs. 2nd, the IRHT can be barraged by both light and heavy arty effectivly since its a halftrack, whereas the valentine is a tank. Is the IRHT scan range larger than the valentines? I honestly don't know their ranges.
Static arty pieces getting wiped by offmaps is not a problem unique to axis nor something that should affect changes to the Sexton. If axis can get map hack, why can't allies get a version thats harder to get?
Valetine and Priest combos is already an existing scenario so buffing the Sexton's range won't create some new terriable situation that axis haven't seen before.
Valentine's armour is not that great, at best makes it resistance to mortar rounds and small arms. It can also take one extra hit from an AT gun, compared to the IRHT.
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And how would this be different from OKW map hack (cheaper, longer range, comes earlier) in combination with defense commander's LeFH or stuka?
The Sexton is a categorically bad, under performing unit in every single regard and been so since release. It needs something if its to be a useful unit and if not, it should be removed and replaced with something that is useful.
If buffing it makes the commander OP then other aspects of commander needs to be adjusted. |
Hi Guys
So UKF is currently in its weakest state after the SBP and the lower unit performance is really being felt. Its no secret the UKF had glaring holes in its faction design, made up for by some powerful crutch units. Now that powerful units have been brought in line, one really has to use combined arms, but what options are there?
I've noticed that the really good players (rank 50+) in team games have been making full use of the SBP changes, using extensive combined arms attacks which are difficult to repel. Ost are particularly hard to deal with, with them having a very complete and well rounded army roster. OKW are just as capable but take a little longer to get up to speed with their combined arms.
There are loads of potential scenarios to discuss but three aspects in particular have me a bit stumped: Early game garrison play, appearance of pgrens and keeping your team weapons alive.
-> UKF counter garrison options have always been bad but after SBP, the lethality of mortars against garrisons means axis can deny you garrison cover even quicker, putting you on the retreat the whole time and making it very easy to loose your HMGs entirely.
What can be done in this situation? Should one be spamming more expensive tommies or have people had more luck with bren carriers? Are flamer RE the way to go, given that you have no viable smoke options. Smoke raid operation come into play or is it unlocked to late?
-> Aggressive Pgrens use appears to be the new meta as well, especially on more confirmed maps. Apart from an already setup vickers, I'm not sure what else can stop them if they manage to close a bit of distance. Double bren tommies seem to melt at anything other than far and behind cover. Throw in a flamer HT or 222 for extra shock value and I find my self constantly on the retreat. An AEC to counter their light play is immediately shut down by pgren shreks.
-> Another meta habit I've noticed is good player will specifically target your support weapons above all else. It makes sense of course, as they are they are the units that will do the most damage. What do people do to keep them alive apart from constantly re-crewing with RE?
I've tried looking for replays for high level UKF team play recently but it seem people aren't playing UKF any more :-/ .
Anyhow, just wondering if others have come up with tenable unit and commander combinations that help deal with the UKF shortfall. |