What is that supposed to mean? Kittens = Tiger, Tiger B, Panther
Only the Tiger ace and the Tiger B are strong.
Panthers barely handle T-34/85s, lose to them if not properly used and suck versus infantry. Previous patches showed how useless it is with even slight nerfs. Touch that thing and you destroy Ostheer.
Tigers are good versus infantry but are only mediocre versus armor. Constant nerfs to its health lead to it being not very survivable. Will most likely lose to an IS-2. No nerfs needed.
Have to fight 60range, 240 damage, Jacksons.
How are Kittens OP again? In fact Panther and Tiger are at one of their weakest states ever in this game.
have you ever listened to/read Cynthia?
she says quirky stuff about kittens and jazz hands
hell, one of the patches official changelog has something like "real tigers added"
she didn't mean the "big cats" she meant kittens |
Let me flip the script on you.
Panther in t3. What does that do to the 34/76? You could use zis and to a lesser degree guards, but it makes building a t34 a waste of resources. Nothing wrong with the 85. It's just the timing thing. Buff the 76. I care not. But putting an 85 in t3 will lead to every ostheer player skipping t3. Put it in t4. That's fine... sort of. The regular mediums need a minute before the big mediums come out.
I think it's faction design. A few good units vs a mass of not quite so good units. |
Lol. I'm no axis warrior, believe you me. My favorite is USF by a mile, but I get bored of being pigeonholed into 2-3 strats if I want to win.
I could give a fuck about my stats. there is no money involved, but that said I guarantee I'm a better player than you'd think by looking at my stats playing with randoms. I play 95% of my games with friends and try really crazy stuff with randoms. Ever try spamming stugs into lefh? I actually prefer 2v2 myself, just not with a random mate. I rarely get to play the 2v2s because there are always more guys around. To me the game is about having fun and socializing with Internet strangers. Definitely not about measuring dicks.
Imagine having to fight two 85s with a p4 and a stug. Even two stugs and p4 are in a world of trouble. Tell me that doesn't make you cringe. T3 doesn't pen well at all. The p4 is damn good imo for what it is. With vet 2 it's even solid in late game. That said, it's simply outclassed by the 85. That in and of itself isn't the issue. The timing is. Having 85s hit the field at the same time p4s are will not be good. There is a reason the bad ass mediums like the e8, 85, and panther come out a good five minutes after the stock mediums. It's because they pwn stock mediums. I agree with the notion that it's silly to have stock units just upgraded by doctrinal ones. There should be different roles, even if only slightly. M4a3 and the m4a3e8 are a good example of this. Or the p2 and doctrinal ostwind for okw, better yet command panther and normal panther. But making the best mediums arrive when the other guy is just getting his stock one out is clearly disadvantageous to the latter. Soviets vs Wehrmacht isn't badly balanced, why screw it up? |
And I have 597 hours in the game currently. I would prefer to remain anonymous, and you'll have to take my word for it. I play 2v2 exclusively though, so there might be dissonance with 1v1 exclusive players.
Not to sound like a prick, but when having balance discussions, experience matters. I have 788 hours in game and i'm still a scrub. Thus I largely stay out of balance discussions. I tend to listen to guys like Cruzz, Luvnest, Sib, etc etc. It's proven they know what they are talking about. For all we know you are a seven year old kid with a good grasp on the English language. At least having the cojones to show your player card lets people know you have some skin in the game.
on topic.
85 in t3 wouldnt be as great as you think. Facing 85s with ostheer t3 would be a nightmare. They are better than p4s. period. that 160 extra hp is a huge deal. it makes perfect sense playing okw, but it would further erode ostheer's usefulness, which has been declining for some time now. |
The Enola Gay bombing run is op. It even melts my screen. But mushroom clouds are nice. |
This thread is like banging your head against a brick wall.
M36 is too rng. Axis fan boys can kiss my lily white pudding. If it pens it's a monster. When it doesn't it may as well be a m5 stuart. Axis has the heaviest armor and the best penetration at weapons and that fact. Shreks 100% pen virtually all usf armor. Only e8 has like 17% chance to bounce. All the while the 57mm can't pen anything at long range and our top of the line dedicated TD, which by its poor survivability is forced to engage at max range, has a pen of 160 at long range (correct me if I'm wrong) it's imbalance plain and simple. I'm pretty sure shreks pen 160 at max range too, and they are supposed to be at support. USF has a hell of a time cracking some nuts while axis can simply walk infantry up to usf armor and "say hello to my little friend"
If m36 could pen a panther at a rate of more like 66-75% it would be infinitely better. You can't over value generalist units when fighting an army composed of specialists. Take out one link and it all falls apart. |
M3 grant or Lee for sure. It has the 37 up top to deal with the lights and the 75 was more like howitzer/infantry support. Brits supposedly loved them. Montgomery vs Rommel was the best fight in the war.... and I'm an American. The 8th Army was a ragtag bunch from all over the empire. That could be a really neat aspect, maybe as commanders. ANZAC, India, maybe Scots with distinct uniforms. If they got good voice actors too..... omg. |
I'm no pro but I always get 2 pgrens. Generally once t2 goes up I go pgrens pak pgren. Whichever vets quicker I'll leave vanilla and get shreks on the other. Vanilla to flank infantry and Shrek supports.
Saying a single pgren should counter a Sherman is silly. They hard counter lights and soft counter mediums. They should never lead an advance. Everyone knows they're squishy. They could use a bit of help on the ai side, but not much. Maybe a bit more armor/rcvd accuracy or something, but then they might just be op. Pq said by the numbers they were borderline op. I think they are great, and very expensive to lose. So don't use them in ways they can be easily wiped. With shreks they are support, not the vanguard. |
Be happy they give us free stuff at all. If they were the "capitalist dogs" some make them out to be, then we'd get nothing free. I'm thrilled I can finally get close air support doctrine, and new skins are always nice. |
i would also argue that the fuel conversion is irrelevant. Yes okw has 2/3 fuel income (not .33). That doesn't mean anything except when it comes to ability to replace losses. fuel costs are largely there for timing, and okw tanks timings are the same or faster than anybody else's. Every faction has to tech up, so tech costs are also irrelevant. When comparing unit a to unit b you do it strictly on the cost of the unit regardless of teching and okw reduced income.
okw units are by and large superior to their counterparts from every other faction which is supposedly to make up for this reduced income. and they do have a medium tank. its called the panzerkampfwagon V aka panther. They also have p4s in a shitty doctrine and they come too late, but still, they have mediums tanks.
now the perfect example of superior to other faction units is the panther. it arrives earlier than the wehrmacht panther. it is superior in several stats, speed by a huge amount.
The argument about spamming 1-2 types of units is kinda irrelevant, but so is everyone else's. WTF is usf supposed to do other than rifles? same as okw, same as wehrmacht. Are they supposed to skip grens entirely? There are a few doctrines with other infantry options, but ostruppen and assault grens do not an army make. The reason axis is easier to micro comes down to the late game. USF has 2 jacksons, a sherman, and a scott (at least that's my ideal, usually 4 armored units for everybody) Axis has a p4/panther and a heavy. Four units are harder to micromanage than two units. That is what it boils down to. Relic even said as much. Infantry is infantry, although it is a bit easier with team weapons as you don't move those quite as much as your line infantry. USF suffers from shitty machine gun-itis, and no mortar, so they have even more infantry to micro because of it. When i play wehr i usually have 3 grens and 1-2 pgrens. When I play USF I always have 4 rifles(except airborne then swap in paras) and an RET and an officer(capt/lt) It's one more squad. I didn't cont pios but maybe could have, but RET aren't repair units since vehicles can do it themselves, and i kit my REs out with zook's, so they are active fighting units, not repair/mine/auxilliary units. I will say I think long range infantry is easier to micro than med-short, so axis is favored there too.
in any case, the way okw is designed is the problem. They are supposed to overcome their lack of resources/not having as many units by having great units, except their unit count is the same as everybody else's. They get free AA, They get free repairs/healing. Every unit they have is freaking great at their role except raketenwerfer & volks for early game, but late they shine. They are supposed to be resource starved, but they just aren't. The are reduced, but not enough to really cripple them. If they had more muni sinks, it would help show that aspect of design. OKW is low on fuel, but they were designed to run that way, so it doesn't make a ton of difference. It's a bit of a hollow argument when okw only guys cry about reduced income. They are designed with that in mind, it's not like if any of the other 3 had reduced income. OKW is just an odd design, which, as i've been told, was thoroughly changed in alpha, so it's not quite what was conceived and has odd implementation.
I think if okw was supposed to be resource starved then reduced manpower should have been implemented as well. even if that meant better units, there actually would be fewer of them. |