In my opinion, the OKW Panther is almost completely fine, maybe could use a small buff but really nothing major.
The Ostheer Panther is a more tricky situation. The unit itself is perfectly fine in relation to its cost, but when you factor in the cost of teching and the prominence of the Tiger amongst Ostheer doctrines, the Panther becomes a bit of an unattractive option. Basically, it doesn't really have a niche to fill in the Ostheer faction. We all seem to agree that its job should be "late game tank hunter," so it seems to me that either the Panther needs to get better at this, or the Tiger needs to be a less attractive option.
If they wanted to look at the Panther, maybe the could add some sort of ability to emphasize its anti-tank role like the OKW command tank's "mark vehicle" or the Pak's "target weak point." If they wanted to change the Tiger, I think it would have to be something like a cost/CP increase, since nerfing the Tiger directly would just make it overlap even more with the Panther. |
Soviets are hard to beat on Stalingrad. The Flak Truck is good since Shocks can't hurt it and the map layout makes it difficult to line up AT gun shots if you're careful. However, you've got to watch out for Conscripts with AT grenades: 2-3 grenades will kill the Flak Truck and the terrain makes it easy for Conscripts to close in with Oorah!
Other than that, Fallschirmjagers and Obersoldaten perform decently against Shocks, though not great. I would recommend using Luftwaffe or Fortifications for the MG34, and using 1-2 MG34 teams together to protect one another from flanks. A fast Panzer II (Luchs) is also very good against Soviet infantry and a lot more mobile than the Flak Truck, but this is a bit risky as the Soviet player could have a T34 on the field at a similar time. I would only go for the Panzer II if you have a counter to T34 on the field, for example having at least 2 Panzerschreck upgraded squads.
To be honest, your best bet is just to veto the map. |
OKW late game is not all about big tanks. In my opinion, the OKW's greatest strength in the late game is their 5 levels of veterancy. If you can keep 3-4 infantry squads alive for the whole game, it becomes very difficult for your opponent to deal with. My experience is that OKW is best when the tanks are supporting the infantry, not the other way around. Most of the time, big tanks like the Panther belong at the back, 'sniping' armour. Having them lead the charge will get them bogged down and destroyed.
As far as build order is concerned, I don't think you should attempt to rush any sort of tank. Panthers and KTs are vehicles to buy once comfortably ahead. The Jagpanzer is a far more efficient armour counter (40 less fuel + teching cost), and the Walking Stuka is better for tearing apart infantry and defended positions.
In particular, KT belongs only for the super-late game. Its so expensive that attempting to rush it will just allow the opponent to run you over in the mid game. |
Mortar barrage can destroy the wire, and I believe it can be manually targeted by AT guns. If not, the Zis barrage ability will do the job. |
Now that the rare OKW commanders have become more widely available thanks to Relic, I thought we could have a discussion about which 3 are the best choices for a flexible, automatching loadout.
As a 1v1 player who owns all 6 commanders, I am currently taking Luftwaffe, Scavenge and Elite Armour. I feel like at least 1 MG34 commander is a must, and Luftwaffe ground forces just has a bit more to offer. Specifically, Fallschirmjagers are probably my favourite infantry unit in the game, especially now that the munitions change means their grenades are less painful to use. Scavenge is really nice for the early game, with Infiltration Grenades and Jaegers to lend an edge to the early game without having to expend fuel or large amounts of munitions. Later on, the Ostwind is extremely punishing towards the US, who largely rely on vetted rifles, and fills a gap for the OKW as an infantry-killer. Elite Armour is probably the one I'm least happy with, since it is insanely resource heavy and has essentially nothing to offer in the early game. However, in matches where you can get the upper hand in the early-mid game, the 2 P4s are an excellent finishing blow. Its good but situational, so I'm considering switching it out for Special Operations since STG-44 Obersoldaten seem really good post-patch.
So, what 3 commanders do you guys take, and for which game size?
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I'm considering purchasing the Scavenge Doctrine for OKW, but before I do I would like to know a little more about the performance of the Jaeger Infantry squads. How strong are they overall? Do they justify the cost (similar to Sturms for 4 men, as I understand)? I've heard that they have G43s, but is that the whole squad or just a couple? What is the main battlefield use for them: long range DPS or just 'harrassing supply points' as the doctrine summary says? I would really appreciate it if someone who has experience with the Scavenge Doctrine could answer. |
I've been experimenting with the OP Rifle Company thanks to the free rotation, and it got me thinking about the idea of doctrines with abilities that cost 0 CP (especially unit call-ins, thinking specifically of things like Mechanized Assault that offer a new mainstay unit). Specifically, I'm not sure if they are a good idea or not. One of the things I liked about vCoH was the way that doctrines could be chosen at crucial points to counter an opposing strategy, or multiply a strength of your own force. My problem with 0 CP unlocks is that it encourages you to pick a doctrine without knowing anything about your opponent, removing an interesting aspect of counterplay.
In particular, the Rifle Company is problematic for 2 reasons. Firstly, with this doctrine you are actually punished for delaying your choice. If you choose early, you can have more Vet. Rifleman instead of regular squads, giving you an advantage. Secondly, you are gambling very little by choosing early, since the Rifle Company is good in pretty much all situations (early game and late). Basically, if an American player has the Rifle Company there is very little reason not to choose it immediately in every single game (as many OKW players are discovering).
Accepting that this is pretty academic, since Relic isn't gonna just remove these doctrines, what do you guys think of such doctrines? Are they a good idea or not? My view is that, since they're here to stay, Relic should balance them to introduce an element of risk to denying yourself choice early on. |
I think a Puma is really the best solution. It usually forces back-teching to T2 to pick up a Zis, which delays the T34s/other armoured units. If the Soviet player aggressively denying fuel I will sometimes settle for a Flak Halftrack, but this a worse solution IMO because its not too hard to deal with simply by upgrading the AT nades on conscripts, and it can be escaped from due to the set up time.
More generally, I think the key think against Soviets is to figue out what tech building they built first. If they go Tier 1 for snipers/M3, you need the Puma. If they go Tier 2 and spam Maxims, you need the Infantry Support Gun. I always hold off building my first truck until I have confirmation of this.
I think that the Raketenwerfer baiting is not that great of an idea. Firstly, it is kind of unreliably due to the small arc of fire and slow movement. Secondly, ypu'll only get one shot as once you've tipped that you have it, the Soviet player will be way more carefull. But moreover, even if you kill the M3 you are left with a 270 MP unit that does nothing until T34s hit the field, which may be some time. By contrast, a Puma or Flak Halftrack can go on to do a lot more in the early game. |
I only own the 3 basic commanders and honestly, I go Luftwaffe 99.9% of the time. MG34s are almost always great, and really help OKW against aggressive infantry play early game. However, the real reason is Fallschirmjagers. In my experience, a good way to win as OKW is to have a few highly-vetted elite infantry squads who can dominate infantry-on-infantry engagements, with Volksgrenadiers acting more as support troops. Realistically, only Fallschirms and Obersoldaten have the firepower and durability to fulfill this role (I don't particularly rate Panzerfusiliers).
Now I'm a strong advocate of simply not building Schwerer Panzer Truck as OKW. The 80 fuel tied up in that building is much more usefully spent on a Jagpanzer or Stucka, which actually provides some map presence. For that reason, Obersoldaten are out which makes the Fallschirmjagers essential. Hence, Luftwaffe Ground Forces.
EDIT: another reason I love them is that they can get in close and panzerfaust a vehicle, setting up a nice kill with Raketerwerfers or Volksgrenadiers. Obers don't have the same utility. |
Yeah, in the past I remember right clicking simply causing my vehicle to move on top of the abandoned target. I've always thought you had to attack ground |