We are debating a certain situation, not every single game you play. In this certain situation, you need to stop making tanks and focus solely on artillery and infantry.
How stupid are people to mistake a specific situation with every game one plays...
It is true that building a JT or an Elefant forbid you and your allies to build some Brumbars/Tiger/KingTiger... or panthers/ostwinds
It is also true that those units are extremely bad at wiping infantry squads in two shots for the first list and are so easily taken by zook/piats/ATrifles...
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That is why you get artillery and protect it with infantry and perhaps one tank if needed. The tank and infantry can fight off a Panther or two and your artillery can kill the low entity squads like the Obers, panzergrenadiers and grenadiers easily.
How stupid are players to build tanks when only infantry and artillery are enough... |
I say this cause I always see USF players deciding to run their Jacksons into the enemies line and trying to kite a unit they think is alone. I don't think anyone is denying that the Jackson is a great tank, but I wanted to see what other people thought if they would rather have a tank with a tank with stronger armor or an upgradable option for a better gun for the Sherman.
Bad players are doing that all the time and are bad because of it, they don't know how to use them efficiently, even if it works ( ie: playing vs worst players). Good players are doing that when they lose their nerves or because there is nothing else to do, what we usually call a all-in.
If you want a better sherman, use the infantry company. However the modding team is changing the role of the Jackson, check the FALL mod patchnote.
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Is it always that bad?
They are the ones with the AT nade after all, I do it sometimes when I got a spare squad or one that isn't gonna hit vet3 for Double BAR, it makes them good at ambushing armor from sight blockers!
I equip my RE and a RM squad with dual zook if I see a Luch or various 222s. Good OKW players aren't going to let their Luch die vs a single RE zook squad. Imo it is better to have one less RM BAR/M1919 squad and build an extra HMG.50 to compensate the lack of IA power.
Then if I go T2, I can dual equip zook or BARs on the captain, it depends of my need. |
Well I always approach these kind of situations from different vantage points:
Ostheer and the Elegiglefant
Ostheer has squads and support weapons with only 4 members. I focus on wiping them of the field first, this will bleed the Ostheer player very hard, which means there is little to no support left for the Elefant. This opens the door for a good attack with 3 T34-76s or Crommwells or Shermans.
Ostheer also has no forward retreat point, so they will take ages to get back on the field once they retreated on 3v3 and 4v4 maps. This gives you another opening to dive in and kill that Elefant.
I achieve the above by using the dominant Allied artillery to finish the Ostheer units off. Alpha strikes usually either force them off, or wipe them in one go. This opens the door for the heroic dives.
OKW and the Jagdtiger
This is a little trickier, but it can be done. The problem with OKW is that they have vet 5 and they have larger squads. However, their support weapons are still vulnerable to large scale artillery. I use artillery to soften up the defenses and use commandoes or upgraded infantry to melt down their health. This opens the door for an artillery strike to kill them off (if not used prior of course).
In team games, mainly 3v3 and 4v4, the maps are huge so it will take some time for the infantry to return. If you have a teammate that helps you, you can swarm the Jagdtiger with roughly 4-5 tanks. One to block it, the others to kill it.
Lol, it is true that there is never a mix of OKW and Ostheer forces around the Elefant or the Jagtiger, or both. |
Thread: USF 4v46 Aug 2017, 20:17 PM
As USF you must strike hard early game since you serve nothing on late game, so Lieutenant first with a halftrack is a good option. 4vs4 is all about delaying at maximum the moment you need to retreat your squads.
I like to go mechanized commander and call a half-track so you can use it to reinforce on the field in any territory. The ambulance is good for healing but you can only use it on your territory.
You need to learn to use those half-track because they can be wiped in two shots earch.
You must unlock Bar/zook and equip a dual zook on 1 or 2 squads after calling the lieutenant because you need them hard.
Then you can go captain if you are behind in fuel or major if you can have a fast Scott or Sherman.
With the Mechanized commander, you have the arty strike at CP08, use it as often possible on damaged OKW trucks, it takes around 2/3 of trucks life per call, if you have a sherman nearby to finish it off, it is just perfect. |
If that is what you understand from the sentence:
"Note that Su-76 by vet 2 has more DPS at range 60 than the Elephant in the same range."
I am sorry but I can not really help you.
It's your Ostheer's fanboyism that can't be helped. TD vs mediums in Live and in numbers but forgetting half of them.
What do you want to proof with your numbers if you don't even take the armor of each unit in consideration. What the purpose of saying a SU-76 vet2 deal more raw damage than a Elefant (true or not). If the idea is using them to shot cans on your backyard and see which get the biggest hole, yes maybe it as a value. In Coh2 sorry but it doesn't. |
Comparison of the Elephant prepatch post patch.
Chance to damage (hit and penetrate):
elefant_88mm_gun_mp | 1,10 | 1,02 | 0,95 | 0,87 | 0,80 | 0,71 | 0,63 | 0,55 |
Modified DPS:
elefant_88mm_gun_mp | 36,57 | 36,57 | 34,48 | 31,61 | 28,73 | 25,86 | 22,99 | 20,11 |
elefant_88mm_gun_mp patch | 32,00 | 32,00 | 30,17 | 27,66 | 25,14 | 22,63 | 20,11 | 17,6 |
Note that Su-76 by vet 2 has more DPS at range 60 than the Elephant in the same range.
Are you sincerely comparaing a SU-76 with an Elefant?
Put the 2 at 60 ange firing at each other and tell us who win in 100% of the cases. |
An extra 50 mp and 20 fuel is going to put an end to jacksons in 1v1. You literally have to wait 1min longer for a jackson that is far more durable bordering on unkillable on certain maps and/or if protected well.
Usf will only have to fear the new Ost Ostwind and the changes to m10 may cause timing issues for some but in reality the delay is only a minute or two. And usf has ample soft Anti Tank.
The reason that the fuel/manpower price is increasing is not only due to better health, but to also delay jacksons reaching critical mass. Usf are not always starved for muni. I would be more accepting of moving health increase to vet 1, at least then there is some incentive to be cautious with it and there is some reward to axis if it is destroyed.
Were you telling the same story to ostheer players complaining about teh pz4 costing 20 fuel more than the sherman?
I don't think so because it is a stupid argument, one minute count on 1vs1, many things can happened. Would you agree to start getting control on your unit 1 minute after your opponent at the game start?
Already 80% of usf players use the m10 instead Of teching to the m36. Because getting a Jackson is really expensive to only counter tanks.
Now my opinion is that both live and mod version of the jackson are good but they fill 2 different gaps.
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I thought I would quickly add this discussion here since this unit is getting the most talk in a thread meant for more general feedback. I will add a poll shortly after as I'm typing this in a hurry. Also here's a preview on what we had in-mind for the next changes due to feedback.
Current Changes:
-Cost to 380/135 from 350/125
-Health from 480 to 600
-Penetration from 240/220/200 to 280/230/180
-Accuracy for standard and HVAP from 0.06/0.05/0.04 to 0.06/0.05/0.03
Upcoming Changes for 1.2:
-Cost from 380/135 to 400/145
-Accuracy for standard and HVAP from 0.06/0.05/0.03 to 0.055/0.04/0.03
-Far penetration from 180 to 200.
I like the change but this cost will put an end to the Jackson on 1vs1. USF will be completely helpless vs medium rush.
So as an idea why not simply putting an upgrade to the Jackson, adding health and whatever. So we have a Jackson live version + 1 upgrade per Jackson so you can turn one to be more powerful late game. Something like 100munition to get your final version of the Jackson. |