Profile of drChengele

Fuel upkeep would be a nice way to soft cap the heavies. Not so sure about mediums, but two t34 85s should definitely not burden the player the same way a Tiger or Jagdtiger do.

I realize HazardousKing said the numbers are just an example, but let's discuss some concrete numbers.

Given an average late game fuel income of around 20-25 per minute (15-20 for OKW), depending on map size and caches, a -5 penalty for heavies would not be as keenly felt by Soviets and Ostheer. While increasing heavy tank penalty to -10 would definitely be felt but it would also completely and irreversibly cripple the already struggling OKW fuel economy.

Wow thanks for all the replies guys.

Several users mentioned that the heavies appear too soon. I agree with this wholeheartedly. CoH2 does have a faster pace than CoH1 (for comparison, most vehicles were at least Tier 3 in CoH1, which in CoH2 already gives you access to medium tanks). This is actually good, mediums are fun to use and can be countered easily. So let's give them more time to shine before the heavy beasts hit the field.

The most commonly suggested fix for call-in situation (tying call-ins to tiering) wouldn't even be necessary if heavy call-ins were pushed back by 4CPs or so - you'd have to fill the gap with medium armour of your own, which would in turn force you to tech.

As you can see there are too many factors that prevent heavies from being outright superior.

Well, yes, otherwise anyone fielding a heavy would automatically win the game, which is clearly not the case.

My problem with the heavies is that you see them too often, and that's because they are a tad too easily obtainable (all except KT are call-ins after all), and a tad too powerful when compared to mediums.

There is also the authenticity argument. I didn't want to invoke that because I wanted to focus on balance, but the game is not FUN if all the gameplay is concentrated on a "boss unit".

The sad part is that when mediums clash, this is where the game shines. Too bad that a Tiger or an IS2 are just around the corner...

Inspired by the excellent thread of CieZ I would like to describe what I perceive as a problem with the game. Not only callins but the relationship between heavy and medium armour needs to be taken into account. I will make a case for 2-3 fictional mediums against a fictional heavy. In this scenario each medium has precisely one third of the performance of the heavy, by what ever metric you want.

1) Micro tax :

More tanks means more micro is required. At the very top levels of play this is mitigated somewhat, but nobody can be everywhere. To project the same amount of firepower in the same area, the medium armour player needs to micro 3 times as many units as the heavy armour player.

2) Disproportionate firepower, veterancy and resource loss

Our ideal tanks clash. Shots are exchanged. The trio takes down one third of heavy's hit points. Its DPS remains unchanged. The heavy takes down one third the HP of the medium trio (i.e. destroys one). The DPS of the supposedly equivalent medium force is reduced by 33%. THe heavy retains 100% of DPS. Let's say 2 mediums are destroyed and 1 retreats, and the heavy loses 2/3 of hp and retreats. The results are : the player owning mediums lost veterancy and resources, they need to be rebuilt, incurring a loss of time as well (until new ones build). The player owning the heavy needs to repair it for free, only sharing with the medium player the loss of time. The heavy tank now has more veterancy. The freshly made mediums not only cost resources, they are also vet0.

Multiple mediums can be focused on one by one. Thus the "equivalent" medium force loses veterancy, resources and firepower over the course of engagement. CoH2 focuses on unit preservation.

3) Penetration and support weapons

Support weapons are viable against mediums, but much less so than heavies. I'm afraid I will have to break my neutrality in this paragraph, as Axis is the clear benefitting party in this, since they have more heavies AND more support antitank capability. You can ward off Allied mediums with Schrecks. PTRS and Zooks versus Axis mediums are nowhere near in performance. With the latest patch the PaK was toned down a bit and now each AT gun has their own strong point, but the best penetrating AT gun is still the Wehr one, and the best armoured beasts are on the Axis side. This results in Axis tanks being more resistant to support weapons than their allied counterparts, compounded by the fact that Axis has more heavies in the field, it promotes tank-to-tank engagements. And we have seen how the tank-to-tank engagements benefit the side with the heavier tanks even against a supposedly equivalent medium force.


My conclusion is that when calculating a heavy's performance, an opportunity cost should be taken into account. For reasons outlined here, they should be considerably more expensive, harder to obtain, and/or occupy considerably more popcap than an equivalent force of mediums, to compensate for the advantages listed here.

You get AT unit, OKW gets bigger. You get elite infatry, OKW gets stronger. You get arty, OKW gets better and on, and on, and on...

It's more like, you get arty, OKW gets better arty, then you get 2 more arty because yours is cheaper anyway and OKW fuel income is crippled.

On paper it's a neat concept, but in the game where squad wipes are so important, a single Stuka is preferable to 3 Katyushas, basically.

It's the same problem as the superheavy tanks, as Relic outlined in the previous patch notes. For each Tiger the US is supposed to have 2 or 3 Shermans. On paper it works.

In game, what would you rather have, 1 Tiger or 2 Shermans? Surely that must be why Elite Armour doctrine is so widespread in the meta - because 2 mediums are so, so much better than a heavy ?