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russian armor

I need tips for using trenches

25 Sep 2019, 08:27 AM
#1
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1025 | Subs: 1

Hey guys, I often play Osttruppen, but I never use the trenches. Now I know they can be really strong, so I'd like to ask strategists / players for advice on how to use them:

Where do you place them?
Does it ever backfire on you?
Do you find it worth it over sandbags?
Any replays of trenches being used well as ukf/ost/okw?
10 Oct 2019, 20:51 PM
#2
avatar of Artemixe

Posts: 8

The only thing I learned with the trenches to place them so that the buildings protect the trench by absorbing the mortar shells and stationary artillery.
10 Oct 2019, 20:58 PM
#3
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3310 | Subs: 2

Your opponets cutoff = yes

Your cutoff = no

Basically sandbags, just need to understand that they're much stronger than green cover even though they use the same symbol. So don't place them where you think you'll have a hard time pushing your opponet from.

Try to place them where your opponet won't be able to garrison them with MGs. Weird angles that you can use but your opponet cannot use as well.
10 Oct 2019, 21:06 PM
#4
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817

Your opponets cutoff = yes

Your cutoff = no

Basically sandbags, just need to understand that they're much stronger than green cover even though they use the same symbol. So don't place them where you think you'll have a hard time pushing your opponet from.

Try to place them where your opponet won't be able to garrison them with MGs. Weird angles that you can use but your opponet cannot use as well.


Are they garrison cover? Or something different

To my understanding Garrison cover is slightly worse than green cover for RA. But you do not get it negated at close range. Trenches would therefore work the same right?
10 Oct 2019, 21:16 PM
#5
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3310 | Subs: 2



Are they garrison cover? Or something different

To my understanding Garrison cover is slightly worse than green cover for RA. But you do not get it negated at close range. Trenches would therefore work the same right?


No they're their own cover. Should probably be called "trench cover" I suppose. Bunkers are also different.

Garrison cover: 0.55 received damage modifer, 0.5 RA modifier

Standard heavy cover sandbags: 0.5 received damage modifer, 0.5 RA modifier

OST/OKW bunker cover: 0.35 received damage modifer, 0.35 RA modifier

Trench: 0.2 received damage modifer, 0.3 RA modifier

All of these are "green cover" but they're all vastly different. Nothing new from coh2 though. Poor at information disclosure, kinda like how veterancy descriptions give minimal information.

Like garrisons though, bunkers and trenches do not follow the "10 meter rule" which negates cover inside 10 range.
10 Oct 2019, 21:44 PM
#7
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668



No they're their own cover. Should probably be called "trench cover" I suppose. Bunkers are also different.

Garrison cover: 0.55 received damage modifer, 0.5 RA modifier

Standard heavy cover sandbags: 0.5 received damage modifer, 0.5 RA modifier

OST/OKW bunker cover: 0.35 received damage modifer, 0.35 RA modifier

Trench: 0.2 received damage modifer, 0.3 RA modifier

All of these are "green cover" but they're all vastly different. Nothing new from coh2 though. Poor at information disclosure, kinda like how veterancy descriptions give minimal information.

Like garrisons though, bunkers and trenches do not follow the "10 meter rule" which negates cover inside 10 range.


I don't know if I understand correctly - trenches and bunkers are the worst but they work close range too? Garrison works close range too?
10 Oct 2019, 21:51 PM
#8
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1025 | Subs: 1


...


I looked it up and both the Axis bunker and trench use the Garrison cover type. While the cover types you mention do exist in the files, they're actually not used.

As confirmation, I let a Gren squad in a trench 1v1 a Gren in a bunker and the result was about even (also each shot did 8 damage to models for both sides).
10 Oct 2019, 23:48 PM
#9
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3310 | Subs: 2



I don't know if I understand correctly - trenches and bunkers are the worst but they work close range too? Garrison works close range too?


According to derbyhat below, apparently the structures don't actually use these values and use garrison cover instead, so ignore the values.

However, if they were used, trenches would be the best. You take your model HP which would be 80 (82 for snipers) and if you're hit by say a 20 damage rifle, you calculate the the chance to hit of the rifle by the RA/target size. Standard RA value would be 1. So say your you have a 60% chance to hit a 1 RA model but its standing behind sandbags. Sandbags give a 0.5 RA multiplier, which means you multiply the targets RA of 1 by 0.5, which leaves you with an RA of 0.5. Now you take that RA and multiply it by the gun accuracy of 0.6 and you end up with 0.3 or 30% chance to hit and damage the model.

Now your shot if it hits normally deals 20 damage to the 80 HP model, however with a received damage modifier of 0.5 from sandbags, you take the damage and multiply it by the damage modifier. So you'd take 20 and multiply by 0.5 which gives you 10. So the shot would now deal 10 damage instead of 20.

So if we apply this to trenches from the files (and not the ones ingame), we'd see that a model RA of 1 multiplied by the 0.2 RA modifier would have a 20% chance to hit before even weapon accuracy is taken into account. So basically they'd be REALLY good.


I looked it up and both the Axis bunker and trench use the Garrison cover type. While the cover types you mention do exist in the files, they're actually not used.

As confirmation, I let a Gren squad in a trench 1v1 a Gren in a bunker and the result was about even (also each shot did 8 damage to models for both sides).


Apparently though, none of that stuff I just wrote matters ingame XD

12 Oct 2019, 16:55 PM
#10
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668



According to derbyhat below, apparently the structures don't actually use these values and use garrison cover instead, so ignore the values.

However, if they were used, trenches would be the best. You take your model HP which would be 80 (82 for snipers) and if you're hit by say a 20 damage rifle, you calculate the the chance to hit of the rifle by the RA/target size. Standard RA value would be 1. So say your you have a 60% chance to hit a 1 RA model but its standing behind sandbags. Sandbags give a 0.5 RA multiplier, which means you multiply the targets RA of 1 by 0.5, which leaves you with an RA of 0.5. Now you take that RA and multiply it by the gun accuracy of 0.6 and you end up with 0.3 or 30% chance to hit and damage the model.

Now your shot if it hits normally deals 20 damage to the 80 HP model, however with a received damage modifier of 0.5 from sandbags, you take the damage and multiply it by the damage modifier. So you'd take 20 and multiply by 0.5 which gives you 10. So the shot would now deal 10 damage instead of 20.

So if we apply this to trenches from the files (and not the ones ingame), we'd see that a model RA of 1 multiplied by the 0.2 RA modifier would have a 20% chance to hit before even weapon accuracy is taken into account. So basically they'd be REALLY good.


Apparently though, none of that stuff I just wrote matters ingame XD



Thanks for the info. Would be cool to check it somehow - right now I have a feeling that bunkers are worse than garrisons. They should offer more protection as they are not cheap and it could lead to some nice bunker gameplay.
14 Oct 2019, 02:46 AM
#11
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1325



Thanks for the info. Would be cool to check it somehow - right now I have a feeling that bunkers are worse than garrisons. They should offer more protection as they are not cheap and it could lead to some nice bunker gameplay.


I played a game today where a Brit player build a trench outside their natural fuel and another by their VP. It did help them for awhile as it took my P4 some time to destroy the trench. It seemed like it took a lot longer to get them out than if they had been in a building.

I think Shadowlink's advice is good. The last thing you would want would be to build one by your cut and have your opponent garrison it. Back when the UKF trenches had force fields, I would often see players on Livestreams build trenches by their opponent's cutoffs.
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