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russian armor

New suggestion for Urban Assault

Your opinion regarding these suggestions
Option Distribution Votes
78%
22%
Which would be your preferred implementation?
Option Distribution Votes
33%
33%
0%
22%
11%
Total votes: 18
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
1 May 2019, 11:57 AM
#1
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

The commander, besides RE rifle nades, offers very little in terms of innovation or unique features and mostly relies on reusing units from other commanders.

There are a couple of ideas that might make the commander more interesting.

  • Make the bulldozer sherman its own unit (credit goes to A. Solder for the suggestion)
    Idea: Make the sherman a pseudo jumbo (similar to a churchill/KV1).
    Thoughts: The unit becomes easier to balance since it is no longer tied to the sherman. For example HE shells and more armour and health was seen problematic by some. If it is a separate unit, it can be more easily changed and balanced. It also avoids wp rounds on the sherman, which some have raised concerns over.

  • Give rifles an urban assault upgrade (suggestion)
    Idea: Rifles can be upgraded with airborne M1A1 carbines (lose a weapon slot), gain the ability to throw molotovs (locks out normal nades) and gain the "dig in" ability. "dig in" only works in heavy cover and garrisons. It is a toggled ability similar to "hit the dirt" meaning that once it is activated, it takes a bit until it can be turned off. The ability immobilises the squad but provides bonuses to received accuracy / fire rate / accuracy / received damage (or a combination).
    Implications: It's a unique new upgrade for the commander. It provides a potentially interesting alternative to double bar rifles all the time. The stationary and heavy cover requirement, plus the inability to immediately cancel the ability provide strong and meaningful trade-offs and avoid flat out bonuses everywhere in the late game, like we see for brit infantry and yellow cover.

  • Remove "cover to cover" and replace it (with "fire up") (credit goes to Lago for the suggestion)
    Thoughts: The ability seems undesirable whether you face it (blobbed infantry running at you) or use it (overpaying for the smoke or overpaying for sprint, rarely you want both). The idea some have expressed is that by replacing it with "fire up" this might be an opportunity to make that ability more usable. Personally, I'm a bit torn. I would love to see "fire up" finally addressed and made viable, but that should happen without it having to be in this commander. Some have expressed that sprint + molotovs would also be problematic. However, if the rifle upgrade suggestion is adopted, it could be implemented such that it locks out sprint thereby sidestepping the concern.

  • Replace the calliope with the mortar HT
    Thoughts: A mortar seems a good fit for the commander. Having both call-in rocket artillery and a premium medium tank might be too strong.


There are several possibilities how these suggestions could be implemented:

Option 1:
The urban assault upgrade for rifles replaces cover to cover
The standalone sherman bulldozer replaces the dozer blade upgrade
fire up doesn't make it into the commander and is hopefully fixed regardless
Resulting Commander: [RE rifle nades, urban assault upgrade, rangers, urban support sherman, calliope]

Option 2:
The urban assault upgrade for rifles replaces rangers
The standalone sherman bulldozer replaces the dozer blade upgrade
fire up replaces cover to cover (urban assault package locks out fire up).
Resulting Commander: [RE rifle nades, urban assault upgrade, fire up, urban support sherman, calliope]

Option 3:
The urban assault upgrade for rifles replaces rangers
The standalone sherman bulldozer replaces the dozer blade upgrade
cover to cover is replaced by something else.
Resulting Commander: [RE rifle nades, urban assault upgrade, replacement for ccover to cover, urban support sherman, calliope]

Option 4:
One of the above implementations and replacing the calliope.
Resulting Commander: [RE rifle nades, urban assault upgrade, Option 1/2/3, urban support sherman, mortar halftrack]
1 May 2019, 12:15 PM
#2
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

  • Make the bulldozer sherman its own unit (credit goes to A. Solder for the suggestion)
    Idea: Make the sherman a pseudo jumbo (similar to a churchill/KV1).
    Thoughts: The unit becomes easier to balance since it is no longer tied to the sherman. For example HE shells and more armour and health was seen problematic by some. If it is a separate unit, it can be more easily changed and balanced. It also avoids wp rounds on the sherman, which some have raised concerns over.

I think that would get too confusing for players. A Sherman Jumbo looks significantly different (extra armor plate on the front, very thick mantlet, different turret). Giving a normal looking Sherman 1000-1400HP would confuse people. The current iterations of the Shermans (some having a bit more armor and one extra shot of health) are already pushing the boundries of visual communication.


  • Give rifles an urban assault upgrade (suggestion)
    Idea: Rifles can be upgraded with airborne M1A1 carbines (lose a weapon slot)
    […]
    It provides a potentially interesting alternative to double bar rifles all the time.

Elite Carbines (and one BAR) would have only a small amount of extra DPS on close ranges compared to double BAR Rifles. At mid to long range they'd have less DPS. But close range DPS isn't something the commander needs because it has Rangers.

A rough comparison:
DPS at ranges 5 / 10 / 20 / 30
3x M1 Garand + 2x BAR: 44,4 / 28,4 / 20,5 / 14,4
4x Carbine + 1x BAR: 50 / 32,9 / 19,1 / 13
1 May 2019, 12:15 PM
#3
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

Voted option 2, Calliope doesn't have to be replaced in my opinion.


In my view, Urban Assault Upgrade could be something like this:
- Squad size increased to 6 men
- All members get an M1A1, locks out weapon upgrades
- Replace frag grenade with a molotov
- Reduced RA or something like hit the dirt
- 70-90 munitions, no weapon rack required.

Would be far more interesting than Rangers IMO (pseudo paratroopers :D)
1 May 2019, 12:23 PM
#4
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1


I think that would get too confusing for players. A Sherman Jumbo looks significantly different (extra armor plate on the front, very thick mantlet, different turret) and the current iterations of the Shermans (some having a bit more armor and one extra shot of health) is already pushing the boundries.


I think the bulldozer sherman looks sufficiently different to the other shermans. I'm not advocating 1000+ HP, the main argument is to have a separate unit, which makes it easier to balance. Having a 215 armour/800 hp sherman with a churchill gun (in stats) could be something that is believable. Call it urban assault or urban support sherman for example, it doesn't need to be called a "pseudo jumbo" ;)

Elite Carbines (and one BAR) would have only a small amount of extra DPS on close ranges compared to double BAR Rifles. At mid to long range they'd have less DPS. And close range DPS isn't something the commander needs because it has Rangers.

A rough comparison:
DPS at ranges 5 / 10 / 20 / 30
3x M1 Garand + 2x BAR: 44,4 / 28,4 / 20,5 / 14,4
4x Carbine + 1x BAR: 50 / 32,9 / 19,1 / 13


Thanks :) I did a similar calculation as well and find that the upgrade is attractive because
  • molotovs
  • "dig in"
  • it doesn't require unlocking weapon racks to gain extra dps
  • it is a bit of a compromise since you do lose some long range damage for close range and you do lose burst damage, ergo a trade-off (which in my opinion all uprades should be, it shouldn't be just a flat out buff to everything, but that's just me)
  • this could replace rangers as one of the suggestions states
  • if the upgrade is too weak, it could also reduce rifles' received accuracy similar to the tommy upgrade


How attractive the upgrade ultimately is, depends on its cost. For 60-70, I think, it would be an interesting upgrade that is well worth taking over a second bar in some situations.
1 May 2019, 12:25 PM
#5
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3


I think that would get too confusing for players. A Sherman Jumbo looks significantly different (extra armor plate on the front, very thick mantlet, different turret). Giving a normal looking Sherman 1000-1400HP would confuse people. The current iterations of the Shermans (some having a bit more armor and one extra shot of health) is already pushing the boundries.


I don't think Sherlock necessarily proposed extra HP. He proposed making the Sherman with dozer a seperate unit to help with balancing. Currently the combination of extra HP + armor + white phosphorous is deemed troublesome by some.

Making the Sherman with dozer a seperate 800 HP, 215 armor, 140 fuel tank, but removing the white phosphorous seems logical to me.
1 May 2019, 12:48 PM
#6
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

I voted for Option 4 with Option 3, the rifle upgrade replacing rangers and cover to cover being replaced by something else.
1 May 2019, 12:53 PM
#7
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Making the Sherman with dozer a seperate 800 HP, 215 armor, 140 fuel tank, but removing the white phosphorous seems logical to me.


But what's the point in that? The current dozer upgrade gives 720HP and 215 armor and its price went up to 390 manpower / 130 fuel (Easy 8 is 380/140). The WP shell can be tweaked if it proves too effective against ATGs.
1 May 2019, 12:58 PM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1



But what's the point in that? The current dozer upgrade gives 720HP and 215 armor and its price went up to 390 manpower / 130 fuel (Easy 8 is 380/140). The WP shell can be tweaked if it proves too effective against ATGs.

There is no reason to compare the upgrade Sherman with Easy8 since it they serve different roles.

If you want to compare it with something that would be the Dozer and it superior while arriving earlier. The upgrade Sherman is simply badly designed and OP compared to PzIV H.

It is allot simpler to bring the Dozer to this commander.
1 May 2019, 13:07 PM
#9
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

But what's the point in that? The current dozer upgrade gives 720HP and 215 armor and its price went up to 390 manpower / 130 fuel (Easy 8 is 380/140). The WP shell can be tweaked if it proves too effective against ATGs.


Having a separate unit allows it to be looked at, assessed and balanced separately from the sherman. There might be also a point to be made that it is more confusing for a player to buy an upgrade for the sherman that also comes with downgrades (mobility) thereby changing the behaviour of the unit.

A separate unit can have a clear price and role as well as unit behaviour.

I can see your point though. This is mostly about trying to give the commander something unique, whether the sherman stays as it is or not is not that relevant in the end.
1 May 2019, 13:09 PM
#10
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3



But what's the point in that? The current dozer upgrade gives 720HP and 215 armor and its price went up to 390 manpower / 130 fuel (Easy 8 is 380/140). The WP shell can be tweaked if it proves too effective against ATGs.


You're right, the end result would be about the same that way. Could give it some interesting abilities then, anything will do. I agree with Sherlock's sentiment of making the new USF commander feel a bit more unique.

Cover to cover does not feel unique to me, might aswell replace it with Fire Up and change it around a bit to buff Rifle Company.
1 May 2019, 13:11 PM
#11
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post1 May 2019, 12:58 PMVipper
There is no reason to compare the upgrade Sherman with Easy8 since it they serve different roles.


No they don't, they are both medium tanks with 720HP and 215 armor, meant to be used in a generalist role. The E8 just has better AT while the bulldozer Sherman has better AI.
If anything the 105mm Sherman is not comparable because its only purpose is pure AI.
1 May 2019, 13:37 PM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1



No they don't, they are both medium tanks with 720HP and 215 armor, meant to be used in a generalist role. The E8 just has better AT while the bulldozer Sherman has better AI.
If anything the 105mm Sherman is not comparable because its only purpose is pure AI.


Easy8 is mostly an AT tank.

The Dozer Sherman and 105mm are allot closer with both being tough slow equipped with dozer blade. Dozer Sherman simply being superior 105 both in AI with WP and AT (105 does have deflection damage).

From design point of view the unit is simply superior to 105mm making it even less disable.
From a Balance point of view the unit is simply superior to the Panzer IV H.

There is little reason for this ability to exist, if there is reason for a unit with such characteristics simply replace with the "105" ability.
1 May 2019, 13:40 PM
#13
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 May 2019, 13:37 PMVipper
Easy8 is mostly an AT tank.

The Dozer Sherman and 105mm are allot closer with both being tough slow equipped with dozer blade. Dozer Sherman simply being superior 105 both in AI with WP and AT (105 does have deflection damage).

From design point of view the unit is simply superior to 105mm making it even less disable.
From a Balance point of view the unit is simply superior to the Panzer IV H.

There is little reason for this ability to exist, if there is reason for a unit with such characteristics simply replace with the "105" ability.

Please create a separate thread or maybe a pm discussion with Sander93. This isn't about whether the upgrade is op or not or how it compares to the p4 or the 105, it's about changing the commander and adding something unique :)
1 May 2019, 13:43 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1


Please create a separate thread or maybe a pm discussion with Sander93. This isn't about whether the upgrade is op or not or how it compares to the p4 or the 105, it's about changing the commander and adding something unique :)

My point is the the Dozer upgrade ability should be removed from the commander, so there is relevance.
1 May 2019, 23:33 PM
#15
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

Clarified the options a bit better and added a commander overview to these options. Originally, the options were not that well explained. Please feel free to leave any suggestion for a cover to cover replacement if you voted for Option 3 or Option 4 with Option 3. :)
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