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OKW Unit Swaps 2: Remote Control Boogaloo

Swap Goliath and IRHT?
Option Distribution Votes
43%
57%
Total votes: 14
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
13 Mar 2019, 12:00 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

iii'm back

I made a thread suggesting an OKW tech reshuffle in the same vein as the USF one: vehicular suppression and team weapon indirect in one, and vice versa in the other. Stuka to T3, Mortar Halftrack in T2, et cetera.

However, J4J pointed out that it was essentially just a buff to Mechanized. He then explained in detail how the OKW faction dynamic works: Mechanized pumps out a load of light vehicles to minimise bleed, allowing it to afford late game units and gain a manpower advantage.

So I got to thinking, how could you rework Battlegroup to be distinct from Ostheer and from Mechanized, but competitive with both?

And I had...

...no ideas.

Stick LMG-less Obersoldaten in it, you're making a build that's already too manpower bleedly relative to Mechanized even bleedier.

OKW's doctrinal units are all either medium armor or infantry, so you couldn't nab any of them.

Grab some Ostheer units like the 250 and MHT? Maybe, but you just end up just giving OKW more stuff.

Then I had a crazy idea. I'm still half convinced it's really dumb, but I want to see what J4J everyone thinks.

  • Replace Early Warning Systems in Overwatch Doctrine with the IRHT. Good thematic fit, less insanely powerful than the auto-flares.

  • Replace the IRHT in Battlegroup Headquarters with the Goliath.


Goliaths are really loud, much harder to pull off without the Early Warning flares to spot for you, and if you build more than two you're going to be very short on munitions in a munitions hungry faction. They're also only in Battlegroup this way, which means no Luchs, Stuka or Puma, just a munitions hungry Flak HT.

But they also don't bleed manpower, they inflict serious manpower bleed on the enemy, and are unlike anything any other faction has. More useful than the IRHT, right?

Thoughts?
13 Mar 2019, 13:25 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

I have a better idea lest make all faction including UKF, Ostheer and OKW with non linear similar tech trees that allow access to most tools and get it over with.

Then one can stop redesigning factions all the time scraping half the balance work already done and start balancing the game.

On the other hand USF can also use light vehicles to reduce bleed and after the pathc have no tech tree handicap.
13 Mar 2019, 15:07 PM
#3
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

Linearising all the factions sounds like a lot of effort for little reward.
13 Mar 2019, 15:28 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 15:07 PMLago
Linearising all the factions sounds like a lot of effort for little reward.

You will have to argue that with the people who are involved in the patch since it has been done repeatedly since June 2016.

The only point I make is since the newest changes in USF and (UKF at some extent) indicate that we are going down that road, it would be far more efficient if all the homogenization was done simultaneously instead of progressively.
13 Mar 2019, 15:38 PM
#5
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 15:28 PMVipper
You will have to argue that with the people who are involved in the patch since it has been done repeatedly since June 2016.

The only point I make is since the newest changes in USF and (UKF at some extent) indicate that we are going down that road, it would be far more efficient if all the homogenization was done simultaneously instead of progressively.


UKF got snares, USF had its sidetech barriers lowered because they were unduly punishing.

That's hardly linearising.
13 Mar 2019, 17:07 PM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 15:38 PMLago

UKF got snares, USF had its sidetech barriers lowered because they were unduly punishing.

That's hardly linearising.

In the case of USF it certainly is, a faction design to have powerful units to compensate for the limited access to support weapon now have full access to support weapons.

If in you opinion it not then OKW deserve the same treatment of having their tech limitation removed.
13 Mar 2019, 17:55 PM
#7
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 17:07 PMVipper

In the case of USF it certainly is, a faction design to have powerful units to compensate for the limited access to support weapon now have full access to support weapons.

If in you opinion it not then OKW deserve the same treatment of having their tech limitation removed.


So... uh... what does this have to do with Goliaths again?
13 Mar 2019, 20:19 PM
#8
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

I would rather have an IR HT than a Goliath.

If you want to make battle group more relevent, one could rework the trucks by unlocking mutually exclusive weapon upgrades for volks, say (German) Ptrs, stgs and lmgs from each truck.

Or you could give some sort of activated and/or upgrades defensive aura to it.

You could also make the leig suck less
13 Mar 2019, 20:20 PM
#9
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

I would rather have an IR HT than a Goliath.

If you want to make battle group more relevent, one could rework the trucks by unlocking mutually exclusive weapon upgrades for volks, say (German) Ptrs, stgs and lmgs from each truck.

Or you could give some sort of activated and/or upgrades defensive aura to it.


Really? Huh.
13 Mar 2019, 20:25 PM
#10
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 20:20 PMLago


Really? Huh.


Yea, IRHT provides guaranteed value, especially vs support weapon spam which OKW isn't that good at.

Goliaths are a bit costly and might pay off.
13 Mar 2019, 20:55 PM
#11
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1962 | Subs: 3

I think Goliaths are a bit too cheesy to put into the stock line up, and I'd rather have OKW move away from a lot of its cheese.

At least in Overwatch the enemy will know when to expect them because the flares give the doctrine away. It is also in a doctrine that purposefully has several other good high ammunition abilities so the player will have to make strategic choices. Goliaths becoming stock would probably end up with the old demos situation.
13 Mar 2019, 23:51 PM
#16
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3218 | Subs: 1

Invised posts for being offtopic

Lets not derail another thread shall we?
8 Apr 2019, 19:11 PM
#17
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 12:00 PMLago
iii'm back

I made a thread suggesting an OKW tech reshuffle in the same vein as the USF one: vehicular suppression and team weapon indirect in one, and vice versa in the other. Stuka to T3, Mortar Halftrack in T2, et cetera.

However, J4J pointed out that it was essentially just a buff to Mechanized. He then explained in detail how the OKW faction dynamic works: Mechanized pumps out a load of light vehicles to minimise bleed, allowing it to afford late game units and gain a manpower advantage.

So I got to thinking, how could you rework Battlegroup to be distinct from Ostheer and from Mechanized, but competitive with both?

And I had...

...no ideas.

Stick LMG-less Obersoldaten in it, you're making a build that's already too manpower bleedly relative to Mechanized even bleedier.

OKW's doctrinal units are all either medium armor or infantry, so you couldn't nab any of them.

Grab some Ostheer units like the 250 and MHT? Maybe, but you just end up just giving OKW more stuff.

Then I had a crazy idea. I'm still half convinced it's really dumb, but I want to see what J4J everyone thinks.

  • Replace Early Warning Systems in Overwatch Doctrine with the IRHT. Good thematic fit, less insanely powerful than the auto-flares.

  • Replace the IRHT in Battlegroup Headquarters with the Goliath.


Goliaths are really loud, much harder to pull off without the Early Warning flares to spot for you, and if you build more than two you're going to be very short on munitions in a munitions hungry faction. They're also only in Battlegroup this way, which means no Luchs, Stuka or Puma, just a munitions hungry Flak HT.

But they also don't bleed manpower, they inflict serious manpower bleed on the enemy, and are unlike anything any other faction has. More useful than the IRHT, right?

Thoughts?


Sounds like a good idea. Goliath sounds interesting by default. Requires skill, to pull the trick off. Costy and Sacrificial. Sounds good to me. Costs 100 ammo.

Auto flares is better than IRHT btw.

8 Apr 2019, 20:36 PM
#18
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 125

I'd rather they actually fix / adjust the IR halftrack so that it's not such a broken unit in team games.

It needs some adjustments, first off it needs to be similar to self propelled artillery such as the Katyusha and Panzerwerfer in that it gets killed in 1 hit from any medium tank. Right now it takes two hits to kill, which is absurd considering it's a support unit, and it's very risky to have to send a tank deep into enemy lines to eliminate it.

Second, it needs some adjustment to the actual mechanic itself, making it similar to for example Beacons in that it does spot units in the fog of war, but ONLY on the minimap / tactical map and does not actually highlight the units through the FoW. This makes it a useful unit and it makes sense, but it's not as broken as it is now where it essentially enables players to just spot everything through the FoW and make it all too easy for stukas / artillery.

I don't think making the goliath a standard unit is a great idea, it should continue to be commander specific.
8 Apr 2019, 20:38 PM
#19
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 531 | Subs: 1

I'd rather the IR halftrack was made into a mobile pathfinder beacon.

I also hate the Goliath. Demo charges were nerfed into oblivion for being too hard to counter and now there's a mobile one that can pop out of trees and onto people's retreat paths for only 10mu more.

Hate them both right now.
9 Apr 2019, 10:32 AM
#20
avatar of blancat

Posts: 602

IR legal map-hack HT should be doctrinal unit

but OKW need sight unit too

Why don't we buff the kubelwagen so it can be a sight unit?

ex) focus sight
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