While I choose to faust it, whole gren squad dead, even vet 3
and having that massive armor?
seriously, but why? Why such a unit is designed like this?
If it is a meatshield stuff, it shouldn't be that strong in killing
Give me a reason why KV8 is OP?
1 Sep 2013, 07:10 AM
#1
Posts: 2779
1 Sep 2013, 07:43 AM
#2
Posts: 125
Late game 4CP dedicated AI tank with virtually no AT capabilities. Unsupported, virtually all German armour equal or heavier than a P4 will rape it.
Its strength is perfectly justified.
Its strength is perfectly justified.
1 Sep 2013, 07:48 AM
#3
Posts: 231
It's cause the KV8 is the soviets hardest counter to infantry, where it forces the German player to absolutely tech to armor or get demolished. It's like the reverse Elefant where you force the Soviet player to use combined arms to take it out since it can beat any tank if you maneuver it right.
That being said it does wayyy too much damage on retreat, but that's more of a problem with flame weapons in general, not just the KV8.
That being said it does wayyy too much damage on retreat, but that's more of a problem with flame weapons in general, not just the KV8.
1 Sep 2013, 07:52 AM
#4
Posts: 644
It's cause the KV8 is the soviets hardest counter to infantry, where it forces the German player to absolutely tech to armor or get demolished.
Not really. The KV-8 needs 4CP, the timing of which suprisingly falls together with the first PzIV. That's assuming the Soviet didn't tech and is still on tent. Since there is absolutely no reason not to spam PzIV as Ostheer, the best the KV-8 can attempt to do is a baserape.
5 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
1 Sep 2013, 08:00 AM
#5
Posts: 51
It kils infantry 3x faster than ostwind, bounces pretty much every german AT shot until panthers or heavy call-ins and can duke it out with a P4 when it switches guns (will lose slightly). And given it requires no teching its roughly cost equivalent to P4/ostwind. I think if flame dmg on retreat is changed, it'll help but its just too good for cost. The only reason it isn't in the nerf spotlight is because its rarely used due to guards being almost essential to take down FHT and scout car, and guards/KV8 are of course mutually exclusive.
1 Sep 2013, 08:06 AM
#6
Posts: 644
bounces pretty much every german AT shot until panthers
No.
can duke it out with a P4 when it switches guns
No.
5 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
1 Sep 2013, 08:13 AM
#7
Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41
bounces pretty much every german AT shot until panthers or heavy call-ins and can duke it out with a P4 when it switches guns (will lose slightly)
Should I point out that a StuG is more likely to penetrate a KV8 than a t34 is to penetrate a PIV?.
It doesn't lose "slightly" against a PIV, even if you just duke it out sitting next to each other shooting (rather than, you know, circling around the much slower kv8) the PIV will still have half health left by the time it finishes with the KV8. And the PIV is a much cheaper, faster and versatile unit.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The KV8 is, in a vacuum, an overpowered unit (almost purely because of retarded flame mechanics, which also affect other units like the flameht. Just those units are relatively soft compared to KV8). It's stuck in two relatively bad commander trees and is a slow pure anti-infantry vehicle for the faction that is far more reliant on fuel for antitank of the two. I see more games lost because the soviets make an KV8 when what they really need is an AT unit, than I see won by one showing up.
1 Sep 2013, 08:34 AM
#8
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
While I choose to faust it, whole gren squad dead, even vet 3
and having that massive armor?
seriously, but why? Why such a unit is designed like this?
If it is a meatshield stuff, it shouldn't be that strong in killing
you want the reasons why its so good? it has 240 armor (su85 only has 180). its flamethrower deals 18 dps (for comparison, flamertrack only deals 4 dps with each gun, so 8 total if you can get both to fire on the same target). all flamethrowers ignore armor, so vet 3 squad means absolutely nothing. on top of that dps, flamethrowers also have a chance to kill entities instantly, even if they were at full hp. to top it all off, its only 20 gas more expensive than an ostwind.
1 Sep 2013, 09:07 AM
#9
Posts: 2779
you want the reasons why its so good? it has 240 armor (su85 only has 180). its flamethrower deals 18 dps (for comparison, flamertrack only deals 4 dps with each gun, so 8 total if you can get both to fire on the same target). all flamethrowers ignore armor, so vet 3 squad means absolutely nothing. on top of that dps, flamethrowers also have a chance to kill entities instantly, even if they were at full hp. to top it all off, its only 20 gas more expensive than an ostwind.
That's pretty stupid
nothing in vCOH can do something like this
1 Sep 2013, 09:12 AM
#10
Posts: 51
Should I point out that a StuG is more likely to penetrate a KV8 than a t34 is to penetrate a PIV?.
It doesn't lose "slightly" against a PIV, even if you just duke it out sitting next to each other shooting (rather than, you know, circling around the much slower kv8) the PIV will still have half health left by the time it finishes with the KV8. And the PIV is a much cheaper, faster and versatile unit.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The KV8 is, in a vacuum, an overpowered unit (almost purely because of retarded flame mechanics, which also affect other units like the flameht. Just those units are relatively soft compared to KV8). It's stuck in two relatively bad commander trees and is a slow pure anti-infantry vehicle for the faction that is far more reliant on fuel for antitank of the two. I see more games lost because the soviets make an KV8 when what they really need is an AT unit, than I see won by one showing up.
How is the Stug v KV8 or T34 v P4 relevant?
Ok maybe I was exaggerating saying it 'bounces pretty much every shot' but its frontal armor does bounce a lot of P4 shots. And the P4 isn't 'way faster' or 'way cheaper'. The KV8 is extremely durable, which wouldn't be a problem if it didn't evaporate infantry even if they retreat immediately.
1 Sep 2013, 09:26 AM
#11
Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41
How is the Stug v KV8 or T34 v P4 relevant?
Just giving you some perspective how much armor the thing has compared to what soviet players have to deal with in every single game. Also in a way recommending a StuG as a counter because it has better antitank performance and the KV8 does not have the speed to maneuver around it.
Was remembering KV8 fuel cost a bit wrong (because I never make one when I'm still counting fuel as it's too big a risk), but it's still 40MP and 20 fuel more expensive than the PIV so yeah, the PIV is cheaper and more versatile and faster.
1 Sep 2013, 09:45 AM
#12
Posts: 480
Way too cheap. Especially compared to the Brummbar of disappointment. I honestly think they should just swap prices : p
Half again the armour and half again the HP of a P-IV for a marginally higher fuel cost. Yeah, it won't beat a P-IV but it won't get killed quickly by one (a P-IV has less than a 50% chance of penetrating). Incredible infantry melting powers, can often waltz up to PAKs facefirst and melt them. Easily the nastiest baserushing vehicle in the game.
I really think it needs to cost enough that trading one for a P-IV is bad and that people will stop just baserushing with them regardless of context because they'll probably kill stuff more than they cost most of the time.
Half again the armour and half again the HP of a P-IV for a marginally higher fuel cost. Yeah, it won't beat a P-IV but it won't get killed quickly by one (a P-IV has less than a 50% chance of penetrating). Incredible infantry melting powers, can often waltz up to PAKs facefirst and melt them. Easily the nastiest baserushing vehicle in the game.
I really think it needs to cost enough that trading one for a P-IV is bad and that people will stop just baserushing with them regardless of context because they'll probably kill stuff more than they cost most of the time.
1 Sep 2013, 10:19 AM
#13
Posts: 51
I haven't tried stug vs KV8, it has better reload time than a P4 but does it also have better penetration? P4 is definitely faster, but as you say we shouldn't look at units in a vacuum, and if KV8 has any support its unlikely you'll be able to circle it. Most of the time a P4 would trade shots with the KV8 frontally and it seems to deflect an awful lot. Which as I said is fine if it wasn't instagibbing infantry. I wasn't comparing it to P4 btw (which is pretty balanced now as a generalist tank), more just saying how P4 isn't really a counter to it. You meed Panther or Tiger or Elefant to have a real shot of taking it down. If you're looking at a role comparison of a hard AI and light AT, compare it to say an ostwind - which granted has great AA but thats rarely useful in 1v1 - and you can see what I mean.... Yeah its 40/20 more, but doesn't require teching. Ostwind can't ignore AT guns and AT grenades, infantry can get away easily, the KV8 is worlds in front.
1 Sep 2013, 10:30 AM
#14
Posts: 231
I haven't tried stug vs KV8, it has better reload time than a P4 but does it also have better penetration? P4 is definitely faster, but as you say we shouldn't look at units in a vacuum, and if KV8 has any support its unlikely you'll be able to circle it. Most of the time a P4 would trade shots with the KV8 frontally and it seems to deflect an awful lot. Which as I said is fine if it wasn't instagibbing infantry. I wasn't comparing it to P4 btw (which is pretty balanced now as a generalist tank), more just saying how P4 isn't really a counter to it. You meed Panther or Tiger or Elefant to have a real shot of taking it down. If you're looking at a role comparison of a hard AI and light AT, compare it to say an ostwind - which granted has great AA but thats rarely useful in 1v1 - and you can see what I mean.... Yeah its 40/20 more, but doesn't require teching. Ostwind can't ignore AT guns and AT grenades, infantry can get away easily, the KV8 is worlds in front.
The Ostwind isn't the counterbalance to the KV8, there isn't really one for the Ostheer. The KV8 is doctrinal, and the doctrines it's in don't have guards, which is Soviets only reliable counter to t2, so it forces the soviets to lose early game advantage for the potential of the KV8 late game.
Ostheer on the other hand can build the Ostwind out of their t3 building, alongside the P4 which can kill the KV8 1v1 albeit slowly. Which isn't the point of the P4 vs the KV8, instead you should use it as a shield to persuade the Soviet player from not rushing your infantry for fear of losing the KV8.
1 Sep 2013, 10:53 AM
#15
Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41
I haven't tried stug vs KV8, it has better reload time than a P4 but does it also have better penetration? P4 is definitely faster, but as you say we shouldn't look at units in a vacuum, and if KV8 has any support its unlikely you'll be able to circle it. Most of the time a P4 would trade shots with the KV8 frontally and it seems to deflect an awful lot. Which as I said is fine if it wasn't instagibbing infantry. I wasn't comparing it to P4 btw (which is pretty balanced now as a generalist tank), more just saying how P4 isn't really a counter to it. You meed Panther or Tiger or Elefant to have a real shot of taking it down. If you're looking at a role comparison of a hard AI and light AT, compare it to say an ostwind - which granted has great AA but thats rarely useful in 1v1 - and you can see what I mean.... Yeah its 40/20 more, but doesn't require teching. Ostwind can't ignore AT guns and AT grenades, infantry can get away easily, the KV8 is worlds in front.
StuG has 140 pen (110 pen for PIV), from the front if firing all the time it'll kill the KV8 in 3/5ths of the time it takes the PIV to kill one. Plus if you get vet1 on the stug you can weak point stun the KV8 for a bit and so on.
1 Sep 2013, 11:19 AM
#16
Posts: 51
Cheers, will give the Stug a run next time I see a KV8. P4 doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent, and T4 just isn't practical in most 1v1s.
1 Sep 2013, 11:47 AM
#17
Posts: 394
KV8 has way too much health, give the same amount of health to the Ostwind and every Russian player would be crying until it was nerfed.
The KV8 makes you instant retreat your squads at the very sight of it, even then if they take a shitty retreat path it will kill them on retreat without a problem at all.
Having said that though, I would be satisfied if the only thing Relic fixed is its ability to kill squads on retreat. The high health and power of the flame can be mitigated, however, killing squads on retreat is absolute bullshit.
The KV8 makes you instant retreat your squads at the very sight of it, even then if they take a shitty retreat path it will kill them on retreat without a problem at all.
Having said that though, I would be satisfied if the only thing Relic fixed is its ability to kill squads on retreat. The high health and power of the flame can be mitigated, however, killing squads on retreat is absolute bullshit.
Porygon Wrote:
I don't like Soviet neither, but please cake, just fuck off back to the official noob forum.
Vetlolcake:
Should i just attack move to get there? I might get there easier. Like sovs do
I don't like Soviet neither, but please cake, just fuck off back to the official noob forum.
Vetlolcake:
Should i just attack move to get there? I might get there easier. Like sovs do
1 Sep 2013, 12:01 PM
#18
Posts: 829
pffff, its made out of metal and it spews fire!!!! Hello
1 Sep 2013, 12:03 PM
#19
Posts: 829
Butt Seriously, its only OP vs infantry (use that as hint)
1 Sep 2013, 12:05 PM
#20
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
It shows up and a squad dies almost every single time. Literally the only way to not lose squads is to retreat the second it comes in the same quadrant of the map, so to retreat the necessary amount of units you lose complete map control. The main problem is it doesn't take any skill to use whatsoever. Just give it a move order and it plays the game for you, a player with pretty piss poor micro can get one and wipe several squads with little to no effort. It should be good at killing infantry, but for a game that has such a big emphasis on unit preservation it shouldn't 1-2 burst squads almost every time. For those of you saying "well its expensive" that is no excuse for unit to do such a thing. Panthers are expensive, Pershing was expensive, and Tigers/KT were expensive but very very rarely did they 1 shot units. It definitely needs a nerf to flamethrower, and maybe a little bit of a penetration buff to the main gun in return.
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