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Relic leaves Dawn of War 3 behind

8 Feb 2018, 20:37 PM
#21
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6

when was it released? like year ago? and it's already dead, thank god, now Lelic must put some other 1st place reward in their tourneys :snfBarton:
8 Feb 2018, 20:38 PM
#22
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2153 | Subs: 15

LOL


SturmtigerCobra was right all the time.



That's not an unfair question. It's a bit trickier to answer but that's okay. The root of the disconnect that we've focused on is iteration without player feedback. One of the biggest risks in making games is that you don’t fully see how a title will really play and feel until you’ve hit a point where it’s difficult to switch gears. From where we're sitting, bringing that early and ongoing player validation into our process is a big priority so well-intentioned decisions don't go long without feedback.


https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/15995/well-relic-q-a/p5





Before this conversation gets away from us, we don't think anything was wrong with the players. Sure, they're tough on us but they like what they like and that's okay. Our challenge was complicated because DOW players are different than DOW2 players who are different than DOW3 players - each has different priorities, wants and needs.


https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/15995/well-relic-q-a/p6







We were going to follow a similar model to our past releases but I can't get into the details.

Retention and sentiment were the two biggest measures we were watching most closely.


https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/15995/well-relic-q-a/p6

8 Feb 2018, 21:07 PM
#23
avatar of Eupolemos
Donator 33

Posts: 368

It seems to me that New Relic is willing to - or perhaps feel they downright need to - radically pursue broader customer appeal, rather than improve on what already works.

I just don't think that's going to happen.

Either make tight games or go work for EA. If there was a golden market to be found, it'd be found already. You need to grow it yourself.

If you make a good game with plenty of replayability like vCoH, I'll buy skins by the unit, not just skin-packs.

But if you first lie to me and then make a deliberately consumer hostile game; pay2win and slow progress -> purchase, combined with "flavour of the month commanders", you reap what you sow: passionately honest former customers, warning potential customers not to get involved with you in games like DoW3 on every known platform.

And I feel this is what plenty of gamers are crying out for these days: smaller, tighter projects for a known market, rather than big projects going for several different markets.

Maybe set yourself up as a company that goes for the smaller, economically predictable projects that can grow, rather than big hit-or-miss anxiety-ridden projects.
8 Feb 2018, 21:07 PM
#24
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2758 | Subs: 4

when was it released? like year ago? and it's already dead, thank god, now Lelic must put some other 1st place reward in their tourneys :snfBarton:


I have heard the 1st price of upcoming Relic tourneys will be 100k supply coins for each player, instead of 50k + DoW3 like before :romeoHype:

Probably some Relic T-Shirts as well if we are lucky B-)

And yeh, DoW3 was released April 27th 2017 I think, so not even a year
8 Feb 2018, 21:09 PM
#25
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1147 | Subs: 1

Sounds like a good move. Why bother spending time and resources into a game that clearly never got off on the right foot. If you aren't successful during launch, its difficult to reverse a downward trend in playerbase. Now they can consolidate their time and effort into projects that have a higher chance of success.


Sure there will be people upset and rightfully so, but games are a business. If studios aren't making money then what's the point. Cut their losses, learn from their mistakes and move on.
8 Feb 2018, 21:20 PM
#26
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1683 | Subs: 2

It seems to me that New Relic is willing to - or perhaps feel they downright need to - radically pursue broader customer appeal, rather than improve on what already works.


They failed at that though because they didnt even ask the customer what they wanted LOL

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Feb 2018, 21:09 PMGdot
Sounds like a good move. Why bother spending time and resources into a game that clearly never got off on the right foot. If you aren't successful during launch, its difficult to reverse a downward trend in playerbase. Now they can consolidate their time and effort into projects that have a higher chance of success.


Sure there will be people upset and rightfully so, but games are a business. If studios aren't making money then what's the point. Cut their losses, learn from their mistakes and move on.


So they should have abandoned CoH2 as well?
8 Feb 2018, 21:53 PM
#27
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6

\
So they should have abandoned CoH2 as well?


nah, CoH2 even with a bad start come out of it somehow, due to ppl talking about it and it's... bad campaign design and after all they had support from us, the community and like after the year we had continuation of biggest CoH series tournies, so i guess we're the one who saved CoH2 :snfBarton:
8 Feb 2018, 22:46 PM
#28
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1147 | Subs: 1



They failed at that though because they didnt even ask the customer what they wanted LOL



So they should have abandoned CoH2 as well?


I don't think you're comparing apples to apples. Just looking at some simple data, COH2 has 3.7 million copies sold as of 2015 and was released in 2013. DoW has 500k sold and came out in 2017. Just a guess without seeing any financials but I would think COH2 has been somewhat successful, especially against DoW3.
8 Feb 2018, 23:03 PM
#29
avatar of dukejason

Posts: 72

I will continue to provide tech support to anyone that may need it on official forum and will continue to host tournaments via battlefy for dow3.Relic entertainment is one of the most generous companies i have ever dealt with in the industry,and i know they will sponsor many more tournaments to come.
8 Feb 2018, 23:11 PM
#30
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1683 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Feb 2018, 22:46 PMGdot


I don't think you're comparing apples to apples. Just looking at some simple data, COH2 has 3.7 million copies sold as of 2015 and was released in 2013. DoW has 500k sold and came out in 2017. Just a guess without seeing any financials but I would think COH2 has been somewhat successful, especially against DoW3.


You're not comparing apples with apples when CoH2 has 3,866,020 over 4 Years and 7 Months https://steamspy.com/app/231430 vs DoW3 572,376 over 9 months https://steamspy.com/app/285190

It's too bad you cant compare like for like on that site but its possible that the game may have reached the same number of sales had they actually supported the game.
8 Feb 2018, 23:14 PM
#31
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2806 | Subs: 6

compare sales in the same time period, 9 months, then talk
8 Feb 2018, 23:17 PM
#32
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Feb 2018, 21:09 PMGdot
Sounds like a good move. Why bother spending time and resources into a game that clearly never got off on the right foot. If you aren't successful during launch, its difficult to reverse a downward trend in playerbase. Now they can consolidate their time and effort into projects that have a higher chance of success.


Sure there will be people upset and rightfully so, but games are a business. If studios aren't making money then what's the point. Cut their losses, learn from their mistakes and move on.


I mean its not impossible to stop a downward trend but the very core of DOW3 is flawed and basically had little to no potential for a comeback. Games that did have a comeback (Rainbow Six Siege and the recent Division to an extent) while having design flaws and other issues the core gameplay had elements of fun that allowed the game to make a comeback. DOW3 had none of these.
8 Feb 2018, 23:27 PM
#33
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1147 | Subs: 1



You're not comparing apples with apples when CoH2 has 3,866,020 over 4 Years and 7 Months https://steamspy.com/app/231430 vs DoW3 572,376 over 9 months https://steamspy.com/app/285190

It's too bad you cant compare like for like on that site but its possible that the game may have reached the same number of sales had they actually supported the game.


That would be a good feature. The point I was making was that from 2013-2015 it had 3.7 million, where after a year DoW was at 500k. Not sure what sort of support would have magically turned it around. I think people simply didn't enjoy the game, it happens. I'm sure it was really hard for Relic to pull the plug, besides profit and losses, the emotional investment is often the hardest to close.
8 Feb 2018, 23:40 PM
#34
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2306 | Subs: 4

It seems to me that New Relic is willing to - or perhaps feel they downright need to - radically pursue broader customer appeal, rather than improve on what already works.

I just don't think that's going to happen.

People said the exact same thing after CoH2's horrible launch. I don't think it will change much.
8 Feb 2018, 23:54 PM
#35
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 453

I´ve played DoW 3 for like an half hour.
Should´ve returned but i´m a Lelic fan boy.
9 Feb 2018, 01:36 AM
#36
avatar of SturmtigerCobra
Patrion 310

Posts: 917 | Subs: 11

Thank you, Sega for the transparency.
Lessons learned? Stop hiring bad leaders, please!.

DoW3 Executive Producer (Stephen MacDonald);

Unfortunately, the DoW3 team reaps what they sow with the arrogant leadership that had no foresight (no visionary) and moral superiority that stink to high heaven (holier than thou attitude);

I'm not blaming the "little guys" which did fairly well.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-02-08-relic-leaves-dawn-of-war-3-behind-as-it-moves-on-to-new-projects
The RTS / MOBA hybrid launched in April 2017 and struggled to find an audience, with long-standing Dawn of War fans put off by the game's art style and MOBA elements. Conversely, the game's MOBA elements failed to attract fans of the genre.

Quotes from former DoW3 Executive Producer (Stephen MacDonald);
https://twitter.com/iamstephenmac/status/859490696109191168
Crazy to see the reviews of Dawn of War 3 with complaints that it's now a Moba. You should play more first. And play more Mobas.
Eurogamer did you hear that? Captain Obvious thinks you guys are crazy. Okay, Stephen, show me your steam player profile?
https://twitter.com/iamstephenmac/status/745625775206891521
Look! It's me talking about dow3! That was a fun interview.


https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamstephenmac/?authType=name&authToken=Al7T&trk=prof-sb-browse_map-photo
Although Relic offered him excellent opportunities, the game Stephen was working on was based on war, and he didn’t feel it was a good fit for him and his family. Instead, he wanted to create high-quality games for kids and parents. “We want to be the Pixar of games,” he says. “Pixar makes movies that everyone can enjoy – they’re targeted at kids, but you don’t have to be a kid to enjoy the film. That’s what Heartsy is all about. It’s going to be targeting that audience, with that kind of appeal.”

“Right now my life is pretty crazy,” he adds. “I’m living out in the woods in Guysborough, prototyping a game that I know will hit millions of people.

FYI, Stephen hired his wife (Carrie MacDonald) as the Community Manager. A former fitness coach with no experience in the gaming industry.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-macdonald-7729bb126/

What a clown show "New Relic" has become. I'm sorry Relic, but if you guys want to survive, it's time to wake up.

To quote myself;
Dow3 backslash & Abandon ship
The dow3 backslash is a good example where fans feel they were ignored or belittle fan criticism since the first screenshots were released. Obvious the art style was not aligned with what they saw in the Dawn of War III – Announcement Trailer made by Axis Animation which was well received by fans.

http://www.axisanimation.com/

The dow3 executive producer (Stephen MacDonald, as seen in vid) + brand manager (Danielle Robinson, involved since 2014) abandons ship well before launch and are not even in the end credits;

From LinkedIn;
Spear-headed the development of the global strategy and franchise roadmap for Dawn of War, revitalized branding efforts and created overall marketing materials. Responsible for increasing brand awareness, analysing market and consumer trends and defining positioning and messaging to reassert AAA position after 5yr hiatus.

The two game directors involved abandons ship post-launch. Adam Bullied and Philippe Boulle.
From Relic website 2016;
https://web.archive.org/web/20160517010602/http://www.relic.com:80/#meet-team


After abruptly "leaving" Relic, Stephen MacDonald goes to make mobile game studio "Heartsy Studios" which also fail miserably. It took a year to find a replacement so DoW3 launch without the new production leader which are David Littman.
Spotlight on Heartsy Studios
https://www.novascotiabusiness.com/articles/spotlight-heartsy-studios
Although Relic offered him excellent opportunities, the game Stephen was working on was based on war, and he didn’t feel it was a good fit for him and his family. Instead, he wanted to create high-quality games for kids and parents. “We want to be the Pixar of games,” he says. “Pixar makes movies that everyone can enjoy – they’re targeted at kids, but you don’t have to be a kid to enjoy the film. That’s what Heartsy is all about. It’s going to be targeting that audience, with that kind of appeal.”

Linkedin;
The founder and CEO for Heartsy Studios. Heartsy was started to make the best kids games in the world with a focus on quality, fun (obviously) and heart! No murder simulators for us!


4.409 views on youtube.

4.409 (now 4.425) views are not millions, lol
“Right now my life is pretty crazy,” he adds. “I’m living out in the woods in Guysborough, prototyping a game that I know will hit millions of people.
9 Feb 2018, 04:34 AM
#37
avatar of oakdk
Patrion 14

Posts: 69

They could not do anything else, with so low playerbase, its the smart business decision. But the people who decided not to listen to they community, and the warnings, should be fired... Why even bother having an alpha test, if you dont care about feedback ?????
AOE4 must be a success for Relic, if not i think, i will be their last game!
9 Feb 2018, 06:03 AM
#38
avatar of SturmtigerCobra
Patrion 310

Posts: 917 | Subs: 11

It seems to me that New Relic is willing to - or perhaps feel they downright need to - radically pursue broader customer appeal, rather than improve on what already works.

IMHO, I think a big difference now is the "little guys" are no longer "Yes men" that blindly follow some arrogant leader that thinks he knows best. They want to become more like Amplitude with their games2gether model.

https://www.games2gether.com/
I get the impression, they have either Sega or MS (maybe both) on their side so they will be fine.
The glassdoor "review" was part of this as "open dev letter to Sega/MS". Yes, this is speculation, but it sorta makes sense now.
This change (ideally supported by Sega/MS) will backfire more on failing leadership which atm stand pretty humiliated (read defeated).
It's unfortunate some devs will lose their job because of this, but let's face it DoW3 was financially deadweight and not going to save Relic.
9 Feb 2018, 07:12 AM
#39
avatar of d0ggY
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 811 | Subs: 3

Not surprising at all. Relic is going through lots of changes in their Team atm towards AoE4 that needs to be a hit and probably will.

It is actually a shame that DoW3 became like this but it is what it is. Too bad they put so much in advertising it (PayTV ads in Germany or Busstops (LUL gamers don't go out right?), could have used some of the money to maybe make it a little better
9 Feb 2018, 10:54 AM
#40
avatar of Mithiriath
Director of Social Media Badge

Posts: 761 | Subs: 3

Thanks Nigo.

!Your points about betas and players as part of our process have been a huge point of discussion in the studio. I can't get into much detail here but even before the launch of DOW, the AOE team has been working very differently to make user research, early play-testing, and community consultation a much bigger part of how we make games.r_benb


Source : https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/comment/85863#Comment_85863

![...] Most of the questions asked in the OP were answered specifically and in great detail back during the COH2 beta in these very forums. Marcus and I personally gathered and organized a group of top COH1 players and community contributors to provide feedback before the launch of COH2. Our private feedback forums are still there to see as a log of this interaction, and Relic can still access them.

Those of us that love the beauty of the core Company of Heroes design achievement saw time and time again how our feedback was ignored, how a flawed business model was prioritized over make-or-break gameplay issues. The COH2 commander system is a perfect example.

We've seen the incredible enthusiasm of these community members crushed as their interactions with Relic inevitably go south. We've seen Relic churn through "beta feedback groups" like chopped liver, opting to discard the current group if they don't like what they hear, only to be surprised that the next group has the exact same complaints.AmiPolizeiFunk


Source : https://www.coh2.org/topic/62130/relic-wanted-feedback-for-coh1-vs-coh2/post/619124

Yeah, Relic "missed" definitely something in CoH 2 development.
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