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Possible Valentine changes

31 Dec 2017, 13:59 PM
#1
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

After all the commander reworks I also tried this sweet little tank again, just to be reminded how shitty it is. The design concept behind this tank sounds so good but falls short in every way, when it comes to actual use. The IR scan is completely broken in higher game modes but everything else is crap. So I would like to see, (if relic is up for another patch beside bug fixing) the Valentine shifting from a broken, boring and more expensive Uhu to an actual support tank. So I suggest the following changes. Feel free to discuss them.

Ability Changes:
-Concentration Barrage moved to vet 0. Now also involves the base howitzers. Possible scaling with vet (vet 3 airburst shell...)
-Observation moved to vet 1. Changed into a timed, muni-based ability. For example 20sec scan for 20 mun.
Or more drastic to avoid all the IR based bugs, reworked into the spotting ability of the t70

Stat changes:
-Moved to cp 4 (maybe 5)
-Infantry crush removed
-damage output buffed to Stuart levels (main gun and mg)
- vet requirements lowered
-some movement vet buffs removed and changed to combat buffs (it is ridiculous how speedy the thing gets)

With all these changes the Valentine would become a unique little tank with some actual usage.
If we dare to think about reworking the doctrine, the Valentine could become the main point of it. Removing the Barrage ability (it's on the Valentine now) and replacing it with another call in (mobile mortar, or recovery sappers) would only leave Perimeter Overwatch in need to be changed and of course a major buff to the sexton. But then we would get a thematically fitting doctrine all around artillery. It might not be vanguard level, but that's not the point. So what do you think?
31 Dec 2017, 14:19 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Radar should be removed from the unit.

Radar should be an upgrade limited to 1. (command vehicle style)

Pop (8) and Cp lowered (5-6).
31 Dec 2017, 15:08 PM
#3
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2017, 14:19 PMVipper
Radar should be removed from the unit.

Radar should be an upgrade limited to 1. (command vehicle style)

Pop (8) and Cp lowered (5-6).


That doesn't solve the problem this unit has at all. I agree that the IR scan is broken, but making it available on more units is not solving it. I think changing it to a time-based muni ability is enough. But making it a command vehicle style upgrade only makes it worse and leaves the Valentine in an even worse spot.
31 Dec 2017, 16:38 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



That doesn't solve the problem this unit has at all. I agree that the IR scan is broken, but making it available on more units is not solving it. I think changing it to a time-based muni ability is enough. But making it a command vehicle style upgrade only makes it worse and leaves the Valentine in an even worse spot.

If there is no limit to number of radar valentine the pop need to remain high.
31 Dec 2017, 19:31 PM
#5
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2017, 16:38 PMVipper

If there is no limit to number of radar valentine the pop need to remain high.

Pop cap isn't the problem of the Valentine. It can remain at 8 if all my other changes get applied.
31 Dec 2017, 20:34 PM
#6
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

I like those proposals.
jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2017, 16:38 PMVipper

If there is no limit to number of radar valentine the pop need to remain high.

Really have you ever seen someone with more than one valentine?
31 Dec 2017, 20:55 PM
#7
avatar of Waegukin

Posts: 609

Only thing I disagree with is mirroring the gun to the Stuart's, the Brits already have the AEC for an AT light. IMO, it makes more sense to have it lean more towards AI. Combine your suggested changes with lowering the Suxton's population and it'll be a pretty decent doctrine.
31 Dec 2017, 21:24 PM
#8
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

Sounds like good suggestions for changes overall.

I don't buy valentines that often, but when i do i just find it to be a worse T70 at times. It's recon ability is great for... recon..., but everything else is just meh about it when i can get an AEC with better firepower, mobility, and ease of access(not being limited to 1 doctrine).

The concentration barage certainly needs to be combined with the base howitzers, that's for certain. However, then i would argue that the ability should cost some munitions, depending on how many artillery pieces you have(20 or so per gun).
31 Dec 2017, 23:43 PM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

I like those proposals.

Really have you ever seen someone with more than one valentine?

Current pop is 12 (too high for the units fighting performance) so you do not see more than one.

If pop goes down to 8 (it would possible in 4vs4) to have 2-3 out there providing info across all the map.
1 Jan 2018, 11:49 AM
#10
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

Only thing I disagree with is mirroring the gun to the Stuart's, the Brits already have the AEC for an AT light. IMO, it makes more sense to have it lean more towards AI. Combine your suggested changes with lowering the Suxton's population and it'll be a pretty decent doctrine.


I just don't want it to be to powerful. It should stay more of a support tank, that can scare away infantry, like the stuart. And not wipe everything. I dont know the exact stats, so I just took the stuart for comparison.

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2017, 21:24 PMA table

The concentration barage certainly needs to be combined with the base howitzers, that's for certain. However, then i would argue that the ability should cost some munitions, depending on how many artillery pieces you have(20 or so per gun).


It already does, although just 15 mun. But I thought about giving it the same cost as the Infantry Section barrage ability 45 mun, because it's basically the same, just that sextons shoot too if there are any.

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2017, 23:43 PMVipper

Current pop is 12 (too high for the units fighting performance) so you do not see more than one.

If pop goes down to 8 (it would possible in 4vs4) to have 2-3 out there providing info across all the map.


It would be terribly expensive and not at all worth it. (You would spend 600-900 manpower and 160-240 fuel) And that all in comparison to OKW and the Searchlight, its cheap, nondoc and low pop. So how on earth do you think the valentine (expensive, comes late, doctrinal) with 8 pop would be a greater problem then the UHU already is?
Besides, that's not the point of this thread. I made suggestions on how to solve the IR problem, and I think further nerfing it is not necessary, especially as long as OKW keeps the Searchlight.

1 Jan 2018, 12:12 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


It would be terribly expensive and not at all worth it. (You would spend 600-900 manpower and 160-240 fuel) And that all in comparison to OKW and the Searchlight, its cheap, nondoc and low pop. So how on earth do you think the valentine (expensive, comes late, doctrinal) with 8 pop would be a greater problem then the UHU already is?
Besides, that's not the point of this thread. I made suggestions on how to solve the IR problem, and I think further nerfing it is not necessary, especially as long as OKW keeps the Searchlight.


Not sure why in your opinion limiting to one Radar valentine is an issue. The utility of the radar is very high especially in large mod games.

A fighting unit that has so much utility can prove really problematic.

By comparison UHU has a number of drawback compared to Radar valentine like:
zero fighting ability
no other utility
significantly less tenacity

Actually the unit would be allot better if it become doctrinal and move to over-watch and proides some bonuses vs "painted" targets.
1 Jan 2018, 14:34 PM
#12
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2018, 12:12 PMVipper




It's not necessary. Using the Radar ability means giving up all combat utility the tank could have otherwise. The moment you use radar, the Valentine is the same as the UHU, just that it survives more.
IF it gets changed into a timed, ammunition costing ability there is no need of limiting it to one. In my eyes, that's enough of a nerf. Its basically a recon loiter which cant be killed. Also its overcomplicating the issue. You would need a commander slot for the upgrade, new icons, UI space on every British tank, etc.
Why doing that if you could just change the ability? If it is still too strong as a timed ability, there is always a way to adjust cost, cooldown etc. without introducing new systems.

And for your comparison with the UHU, all the drawbacks you listed are meaningless if you consider the price. 200 manpower, 5 fuel. You don't sacrifice anything if you go for one. So you still have the same army you would have otherwise, your tanks don't come out later you don't delay your tech etc.
The Valentine, on the other hand, costs 300 manpower 80 fuel. That slows your way to a real tank considerably and you need to think about how you integrate it into your build order.
I agree with your suggestion of moving it to Overwatch, but this is not a thread about the UHU.
1 Jan 2018, 15:07 PM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


lso its overcomplicating the issue. You would need a commander slot for the upgrade, new icons, UI space on every British tank, etc.
Why doing that if you could just change the ability? If it is still too strong as a timed ability, there is always a way to adjust cost, cooldown etc. without introducing new systems.

Maybe I was not clear. The command ability is to call in Valentine.
Valentine is then balanced as ligt/meduim tanks

It also come with an upgrade button that turn it into a radar valentine (suffers penalties like command vehicle) which is limited to 1.
The units is now balanced as support unit.

There is not need for any changes other than upgrade icon...
2 Jan 2018, 12:57 PM
#14
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jan 2018, 15:07 PMVipper

Maybe I was not clear. The command ability is to call in Valentine.
Valentine is then balanced as ligt/meduim tanks

It also come with an upgrade button that turn it into a radar valentine (suffers penalties like command vehicle) which is limited to 1.
The units is now balanced as support unit.

There is not need for any changes other than upgrade icon...


Now I understand what you want. But its still unnecessary. Why? -> post #12
18 Jan 2018, 23:35 PM
#15
avatar of Spinflight

Posts: 680

It's worse and more expensive than the AEC in almost every way.

Utterly pointless unit.

For a start it needs a large sight radius to be in any way useful at it's supposed role. Then either to be useful as an AI vehicle or AT. It does neither at the moment.

Way too expensive but then the entire commander is garbage. Doubt I'd really use it at 8 popcap, 12 is hilarious.

I don't particularly like the map hack and it's largely pointless except in team games now that the mortar pit can barely touch it's toes. Personally I'd replace the hack with counter barrage, with the max range determined from the Valentine, which fits nicely with the commander.

The Sexton of course is beyond redemption.
19 Jan 2018, 09:29 AM
#16
avatar of Stark

Posts: 626 | Subs: 1


-damage output buffed to Stuart levels (main gun and mg)


Are you trying to tell me this thing has worse stats that a stuart?
21 Jan 2018, 02:11 AM
#17
avatar of Spinflight

Posts: 680

About the same I think, but much worse for AI.

For 12 popcap!
21 Jan 2018, 11:19 AM
#18
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2018, 09:29 AMStark


Are you trying to tell me this thing has worse stats that a stuart?


Don't have the stats at hand, but judging from the ingame performance I would say yes.
26 Jan 2018, 18:44 PM
#19
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 466

Give it camouflage.
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