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Is OP conscipt smg blobs the new meta?

25 Dec 2017, 05:27 AM
#1
avatar of dk828315

Posts: 88

The title. After the patch, every Soviet player I played with spammed smg cons to no end. Playing as OKW, I tried to use Firestorm doctrine to counter them with volks smg, but they bled my mp way too much and rushed T-34s + guards + shocks. The game was done at that point as every tank I fielded get rushed by T-34s and raketens couldn't do much.
The mg34 is still very weak even after the buff, that and con blobs just run them over with oorah. The luchs comes out too late and get rekt by con blobs also. I don't know if it's just me or OKW is too weak atm with all the nerfs...
25 Dec 2017, 08:13 AM
#2
avatar of aomsinzana

Posts: 284 | Subs: 1

PPSH cons spam mean they need a lot of munitions.
In early game the strong point of Cons spam is map-control, not damage dealer, so keep compete SU by map control/ cut off his territories.

If you thing a single HMG or light tank can stop them you are totally wrong.

25 Dec 2017, 08:46 AM
#3
avatar of RussianHamster

Posts: 88

PPSH cons spam mean they need a lot of munitions.
In early game the strong point of Cons spam is map-control, not damage dealer, so keep compete SU by map control/ cut off his territories.

If you thing a single HMG or light tank can stop them you are totally wrong.


Oh, rly? 45 muni for cons, when you need 60 for LMG, StG44 or BAR for other factions. And at the same time PPSH are much better than StG44 or LMG (with "Hit the dirt!").
I said during the test patch what conscripts are too strong and they spam will be a new meta, but nobody listened to me.
What has changed now? Why people began to complain? Oh, right, the patch came out.
25 Dec 2017, 08:56 AM
#4
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440


Oh, rly? 45 muni for cons, when you need 60 for LMG, StG44 or BAR for other factions. And at the same time PPSH are much better than StG44 or LMG (with "Hit the dirt!").
I said during the test patch what conscripts are too strong and they spam will be a new meta, but nobody listened to me.
What has changed now? Why people began to complain? Oh, right, the patch came out.


Conscript blobs are a problem. It is the new meta for the soviets. Ostruppen is going to me Wehr meta and they scale really well now with the LMG (45 muni) upgrade. Also I think we just need to learn how to adapt.
25 Dec 2017, 09:08 AM
#5
avatar of RussianHamster

Posts: 88



Conscript blobs are a problem. It is the new meta for the soviets. Ostruppen is going to me Wehr meta and they scale really well now with the LMG (45 muni) upgrade. Also I think we just need to learn how to adapt.

I played 8 games with my friend (we a top50 with different factions in 1v1 and 4 games I played as Sov) on the patch and Sov have 7-1 winrate. All the time we knew what would do the Sov player, we tried to find a counter, but we failed.
Honestly you have the same performance, when you using Assault grens as Wehrmacht and Fortifications commander as OKW (without a kubel).
And now I have a 17lvl as Sov (top60), when I played as Sov before patch only 10 games in 1v1 since 2014.
Draw your own conclusions.
Phy
25 Dec 2017, 09:14 AM
#6
avatar of Phy

Posts: 509 | Subs: 1

Maxspam is fighting cons spam to become the new meta. Don't make conclusions yet, the battle for top cheese hasn't ended! Good old days are back, enjoy.
25 Dec 2017, 09:37 AM
#7
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

Well, it is historiccly accurate.
25 Dec 2017, 10:37 AM
#8
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

I do not like to create any balance assumptions at the first glance, before everything is tested properly.

Here are (some of) my ideas, you may try when fighting against conscripts:

OKW

  • Go Battlegruppe, acquire Flaktrack to crowcontrol conscript blobs. 1-2 hmgs will serve as another wall of deterence, leigh and volks will bleed them once they are supressed. You want to go Flak HQ and go 2 Ober squads to punish his conscripts even further (always keep Obers togehter and upgrade them with lmg 34) and go Panther + JP4 (in this order) to counter his t34/76 spam. Kingtiger at last will seal the deal if this is not already enough.

  • Go Mechanizes and SPAM Luchses. Your build should be something like 4 Volks, Mech, Rakk, Luchs, Mg34, Luch, Mg34, Puma, Luchs -> what needed.
    With this build you should outpower conscripts ealry on, causing massive bleed and not giving your enemy even chance to make it into the lategame. Only threat for your Luchses is t70 (which is sofcountered by Luchs swarm and rakketen, later hardcountered by puma) and su76 which is useless against rakketen and easily routed by a Luchsbait while Puma flanks it from behind.
    If you enemy ignores tier3 alltogether, you will very likely baserape him before he even gets his first t34/76 (you will hold whole map). And if anything fails, just pick Special Ops doctrine and Call-in Commado Panther which will thanks to mark target and mobile puma deals with any t34/76 before your opoonent gets critical mass of them




OSTHEER

  • Classical Mg42 spam (ignoring tier 1 alltogether) into Panzergrenadier spam (with 222/FlammenHT). Best doctrine is Lighting War with its ability to even add ostruppen into your build and allmighty tiger + stuka combo which can hold any t34/76 at bay. The idea of play is simple, have hmgs everywhere, supress conscripts and then kill them with panzegrenadiers. Any stragglers that get past your mg wall are killed by pgren horde. Works every time. You can also go Pak or Stug to hold enemy tanks at bay.


Just remember, fight fire with fire. If he abuses something, you are allowed to abuse like a horse too. And if a blobber gets salty and you win, then its perfect :thumb:
25 Dec 2017, 11:18 AM
#9
avatar of RussianHamster

Posts: 88

I do not like to create any balance assumptions at the first glance, before everything is tested properly.

Here are (some of) my ideas, you may try when fighting against conscripts:

OKW

  • Go Battlegruppe, acquire Flaktrack to crowcontrol conscript blobs. 1-2 hmgs will serve as another wall of deterence, leigh and volks will bleed them once they are supressed. You want to go Flak HQ and go 2 Ober squads to punish his conscripts even further (always keep Obers togehter and upgrade them with lmg 34) and go Panther + JP4 (in this order) to counter his t34/76 spam. Kingtiger at last will seal the deal if this is not already enough.

  • Go Mechanizes and SPAM Luchses. Your build should be something like 4 Volks, Mech, Rakk, Luchs, Mg34, Luch, Mg34, Puma, Luchs -> what needed.
    With this build you should outpower conscripts ealry on, causing massive bleed and not giving your enemy even chance to make it into the lategame. Only threat for your Luchses is t70 (which is sofcountered by Luchs swarm and rakketen, later hardcountered by puma) and su76 which is useless against rakketen and easily routed by a Luchsbait while Puma flanks it from behind.
    If you enemy ignores tier3 alltogether, you will very likely baserape him before he even gets his first t34/76 (you will hold whole map). And if anything fails, just pick Special Ops doctrine and Call-in Commado Panther which will thanks to mark target and mobile puma deals with any t34/76 before your opoonent gets critical mass of them




OSTHEER

  • Classical Mg42 spam (ignoring tier 1 alltogether) into Panzergrenadier spam (with 222/FlammenHT). Best doctrine is Lighting War with its ability to even add ostruppen into your build and allmighty tiger + stuka combo which can hold any t34/76 at bay. The idea of play is simple, have hmgs everywhere, supress conscripts and then kill them with panzegrenadiers. Any stragglers that get past your mg wall are killed by pgren horde. Works every time. You can also go Pak or Stug to hold enemy tanks at bay.


Just remember, fight fire with fire. If he abuses something, you are allowed to abuse like a horse too. And if a blobber gets salty and you win, then its perfect :thumb:

1 - thats working, but you will have not MP for AT and you probaly lost when T-34 come.
2 - First luchs come a 2-3 min before first T-34, Sov probably will have advantage in the map control, so he can just stay on base and w8 for a T-34 easilly.
3 - dont work, because 2cons>1PG and HMGs cant be everywhere and cant suppress cons with hit the dirt. So you lost in the map control and lost, when T-34 come.

As all axis factions you need bunkers (1, maybe 2) with HMG to blocking most important passages (includes your fuel point) and w8ing for a P4. Thats only one way to win.
25 Dec 2017, 12:19 PM
#10
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 611

Its the same old shit with soviets and by that I mean what is old is new again.

I have not played a good con-spammer since the patch has been released and as such have no real opinion except to say cons seem better and seem to hold their ground better than they used too. There have been a number of times where a pgren or flamer lost quite badly in situations where I would previously expected them to win or at least perform much better.

G43's really seem to be the weapon of choice now IMO.

The real soviet improvement as I see it, is guards. They are back to being really strong and their grenade and the buff it received makes them quite strong, almost op. I have lost numerous grens largely because if both squads throw grenades the guards nade seem to arrive faster and the squad if in cover gets wiped. The guard weapon snipes like crazy and dominates most fights so it seems you have to stay mobile and actually flank behind sight blockers or you will drop models on approach or moving into cover. The matchup with pgrens is quite surprising ime and often results in a loss or squadwipe if you push your luck.

It is quite a surprise that Ptrs damage vs infantry was nerfed by mods in previous patch because it was to strong (TheMachine spoke about it on his stream ) and now its back to being close to op. Guards are really back to being a quite strong all round unit and I am not sure that is a good thing as I suspect they will become meta again.

The other unit that has made a strong showing since the patch is the sniper. Almost nonexistent prior to patch, now I would say I am seeing snipers in 30% - 40% of games. This is also not a good thing as the counters are really quite weak especially the AC. The most effective method is really g43 spam and sprint.
Everything else is really hit or miss.

I think cons on their own are in a goodish spot and can be countered with standard double mg and good use of other units and mines etc. However when guards, snipers, 120 morter and mine spam are added to the mix, well sovs will almost certainly be the strongest faction again or at worst 2nd strongest.

25 Dec 2017, 13:52 PM
#11
avatar of waasdijki

Posts: 76

I do not like to create any balance assumptions at the first glance, before everything is tested properly.

Here are (some of) my ideas, you may try when fighting against conscripts:

OKW

  • Go Battlegruppe, acquire Flaktrack to crowcontrol conscript blobs. 1-2 hmgs will serve as another wall of deterence, leigh and volks will bleed them once they are supressed. You want to go Flak HQ and go 2 Ober squads to punish his conscripts even further (always keep Obers togehter and upgrade them with lmg 34) and go Panther + JP4 (in this order) to counter his t34/76 spam. Kingtiger at last will seal the deal if this is not already enough.

  • Go Mechanizes and SPAM Luchses. Your build should be something like 4 Volks, Mech, Rakk, Luchs, Mg34, Luch, Mg34, Puma, Luchs -> what needed.
    With this build you should outpower conscripts ealry on, causing massive bleed and not giving your enemy even chance to make it into the lategame. Only threat for your Luchses is t70 (which is sofcountered by Luchs swarm and rakketen, later hardcountered by puma) and su76 which is useless against rakketen and easily routed by a Luchsbait while Puma flanks it from behind.
    If you enemy ignores tier3 alltogether, you will very likely baserape him before he even gets his first t34/76 (you will hold whole map). And if anything fails, just pick Special Ops doctrine and Call-in Commado Panther which will thanks to mark target and mobile puma deals with any t34/76 before your opoonent gets critical mass of them




OSTHEER

  • Classical Mg42 spam (ignoring tier 1 alltogether) into Panzergrenadier spam (with 222/FlammenHT). Best doctrine is Lighting War with its ability to even add ostruppen into your build and allmighty tiger + stuka combo which can hold any t34/76 at bay. The idea of play is simple, have hmgs everywhere, supress conscripts and then kill them with panzegrenadiers. Any stragglers that get past your mg wall are killed by pgren horde. Works every time. You can also go Pak or Stug to hold enemy tanks at bay.


Just remember, fight fire with fire. If he abuses something, you are allowed to abuse like a horse too. And if a blobber gets salty and you win, then its perfect :thumb:



For Oshteer this will not work. They will spam mortars an AT guns so your mgs will be dead in no time. And if they have an US allies he will spam mortars or mortar half track.
25 Dec 2017, 14:09 PM
#12
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7




For Oshteer this will not work. They will spam mortars an AT guns so your mgs will be dead in no time. And if they have an US allies he will spam mortars or mortar half track.


If they spam mortars they cannot spam conscripts so much and this implies that your army should be strong enough to break his lines and root his mortars.

Or you can, well, reposition your mgs.

Counters exist, they just need a bit of agression and micro. Of course if you stick on defense forver, you will eventually lose ;)
25 Dec 2017, 15:22 PM
#13
avatar of mycalliope

Posts: 721

same people here defending it and same people that were saying the patch is great,except most of them have a comment history gravitating towards a heavy allied bias..
patch made by a allied fanboy supported by allied fanboys with post history since the launch of coh2
Reason and proof like by russian hamster were ignored
Nothing new to see here
25 Dec 2017, 17:39 PM
#14
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

Conscripts OP?
Things have finally gone full circle, jolly good.
25 Dec 2017, 18:00 PM
#15
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

Hit the dirt will probably get nerfed.
25 Dec 2017, 18:27 PM
#16
avatar of dk828315

Posts: 88

IMO, a reduction in accuracy of ptrs rifles against inf would be nice, or just increase the aim time against inf to make the guards less effective as an AI unit (this could also be applied to penals and cons ptrs).
Regarding the post, I think that using any kind of light vehicles against SU is now a big risk (cons has AT grenades and they are being spammed, not to mention the zis, which is really good).
25 Dec 2017, 23:38 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1

PPsh upgrade is a badly designed ability.

It combines a sort range weapons with a long range weapon.

To make things even worse it is combined with a "hit the dirt" a defensive ability.

The ability should simply be redesigned.

It could become an ability allowing Conscripts to fight better but then it should only be available to commanders with no call-in units.
25 Dec 2017, 23:41 PM
#18
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 611



If they spam mortars they cannot spam conscripts so much and this implies that your army should be strong enough to break his lines and root his mortars.

Or you can, well, reposition your mgs.

Counters exist, they just need a bit of agression and micro. Of course if you stick on defense forver, you will eventually lose ;)


Watched your game vs lenny on Semosky. Care to comment on how in hindsight you could have won.

In my view the mine spam and double 120 morters were the biggest issue.

I played a similar game on Faymonville Approach recently where my opponent invested in double 120's. Eventually just bled out as map was too small to ever counter 120's.

26 Dec 2017, 07:20 AM
#19
avatar of saynotostim

Posts: 18 | Subs: 3

My issue isn't with the con spam per say, it's with the indirect fire the soviets get - and the fact that early cons spam forces you to make weapons crews or at least play defensively, in which you have no offensive strike that can really knock out the mortars/rockets/onmaps because your luch's has been crippled and you're sort of forced to invest in some sort of defensive fortification.

I just played a game where my opponent lost 3 squads to not retreating, lost 3 tanks by driving them into my pak emplacement, lost a mortar to not retreating, and still almost won because he was able to sit with artillery and just blow stuff up from afar. It's the muta-ling of CoH2.
26 Dec 2017, 07:46 AM
#20
avatar of dk828315

Posts: 88

My issue isn't with the con spam per say, it's with the indirect fire the soviets get - and the fact that early cons spam forces you to make weapons crews or at least play defensively, in which you have no offensive strike that can really knock out the mortars/rockets/onmaps because your luch's has been crippled and you're sort of forced to invest in some sort of defensive fortification.

I just played a game where my opponent lost 3 squads to not retreating, lost 3 tanks by driving them into my pak emplacement, lost a mortar to not retreating, and still almost won because he was able to sit with artillery and just blow stuff up from afar. It's the muta-ling of CoH2.

This too. 120mm mortars just keep wiping my squads and I've had a game where the SU player protect his mortars with the cons blob while they barrage my flak truck in BASE SECTOR. He had T-34s to keep my inf from capping the map (OKW inf doesn't have great AT compared to Ostheer anyway).
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