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The Penal Problem

30 Jun 2017, 12:56 PM
#21
avatar of Kill3rCat

Posts: 32

20 seconds means the difference between controling and losing the key house


If you can't force the enemy out of the 'key house' (which you easily can, with a single mortar defended by your Penal hordes and maybe even a Maxim if you're feeling adventurous), then just play elsewhere. Big maps.
30 Jun 2017, 13:14 PM
#22
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 610 | Subs: 1

Do you guys actually play the game or just complain about it? Since when did 2 PTRS's (or 4 or even 6) hard counter luchs/ostwind?

and no Penals don't counter Obers, and Obers are what 400 mp? 100 more than penals? Not exactly 'ridiculously' more expensive than penals.
30 Jun 2017, 13:15 PM
#23
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7



If you can't force the enemy out of the 'key house' (which you easily can, with a single mortar defended by your Penal hordes and maybe even a Maxim if you're feeling adventurous), then just play elsewhere. Big maps.


1v1 maps aren´t big enough to give you option to ignore your cut off.

Also if you force your enemy to build tier2 (another 160 mp wasted) you´ve already won something ;)
30 Jun 2017, 13:25 PM
#24
avatar of Kill3rCat

Posts: 32

Do you guys actually play the game or just complain about it? Since when did 2 PTRS's (or 4 or even 6) hard counter luchs/ostwind?

and no Penals don't counter Obers, and Obers are what 400 mp? 100 more than penals? Not exactly 'ridiculously' more expensive than penals.


Go into the game and test it, then. Two Penal squads each with a single PTRS-41, versus a single Luchs. Luchs loses, almost always.

It's difficult to believe, but you are completely missing the point regarding Ober. Ober are 400 MP... thus, for the same cost, you can either have 4 Penal squads or 3 Ober squads. The 4 Penal squads wipe the floor with the 3 Ober squads. Penals are thus much more cost-effective, and do not require a 200 MP + 120 fuel building.
30 Jun 2017, 13:36 PM
#25
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 610 | Subs: 1



Go into the game and test it, then. Two Penal squads each with a single PTRS-41, versus a single Luchs. Luchs loses, almost always.

It's difficult to believe, but you are completely missing the point regarding Ober. Ober are 400 MP... thus, for the same cost, you can either have 4 Penal squads or 3 Ober squads. The 4 Penal squads wipe the floor with the 3 Ober squads. Penals are thus much more cost-effective, and do not require a 200 MP + 120 fuel building.


So, lets think about this: in order to fight the luchs you need to get 2 penal squads (600 MP), upgrade them to having 4 PTRS's (100 muni or something?) and then have the luch sit in-front of your units not moving, all the while your 600 manpower and 100 muni worth of squads is now crap at fighting over infantry.

Taking it further, in reality the luch will be moving, probably away from the penals, meaning the penals wont be able to get many shots off. You lose MP, the luchs get repaired for free.

I believe you missed the point of me mentioning Obers.

30 Jun 2017, 13:40 PM
#26
avatar of MarioSilver

Posts: 62

Do you guys actually play the game or just complain about it? Since when did 2 PTRS's (or 4 or even 6) hard counter luchs/ostwind?
The recent miragefla's brainstorm gave them a funny nade, remember?


They repel and/or destroy vehicles.


INB4 someone says "don't get close", ignoring the common aknowledge that axis AI vehicles don't do jack shit at range.
30 Jun 2017, 13:44 PM
#27
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 610 | Subs: 1

The recent miragefla's brainstorm gave them a funny nade, remember?


They repel and/or destroy vehicles.


INB4 someone says "don't get close", ignoring the common aknowledge that axis AI vehicles don't do jack shit at range.


Playercard please.
30 Jun 2017, 13:45 PM
#28
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2138 | Subs: 1



So, lets think about this: in order to fight the luchs you need to get 2 penal squads (600 MP), upgrade them to having 4 PTRS's (100 muni or something?) and then have the luch sit in-front of your units not moving, all the while your 600 manpower and 100 muni worth of squads is now crap at fighting over infantry.

Taking it further, in reality the luch will be moving, probably away from the penals, meaning the penals wont be able to get many shots off. You lose MP, the luchs get repaired for free.

I believe you missed the point of me mentioning Obers.



Yeah I wanted to write something like this too. PTRS Penals vs. Luchs is just not good.
30 Jun 2017, 13:49 PM
#29
avatar of MarioSilver

Posts: 62



Playercard please.
So you admit your argument was silly? That is what your post implies, proved you wrong.
30 Jun 2017, 13:51 PM
#30
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 610 | Subs: 1

So you admit your argument was silly?


Nope, I'm asking you for your playercard (something that shows me that your current ranks are in automatch) because i think you are falling victim to penals due to a lack of skill.

Note: I mean no offense.
30 Jun 2017, 13:54 PM
#31
avatar of MarioSilver

Posts: 62



Nope, I'm asking you for your playercard (something that shows me that your current ranks are in automatch) because i think you are falling victim to penals due to a lack of skill.

Note: I mean no offense.


Meaning; "I failed to defend my argument and prove the viability of my proposed pro strat, hence I am blaming your person to cover it up"
30 Jun 2017, 13:59 PM
#32
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 610 | Subs: 1



Meaning; "I failed to defend my argument and prove the viability of my proposed pro strat, hence I am blaming your person to cover it up"


Nope i mean exactly what I wrote.
30 Jun 2017, 14:05 PM
#33
avatar of Kill3rCat

Posts: 32



So, lets think about this: in order to fight the luchs you need to get 2 penal squads (600 MP), upgrade them to having 4 PTRS's (100 muni or something?) and then have the luch sit in-front of your units not moving, all the while your 600 manpower and 100 muni worth of squads is now crap at fighting over infantry.

Taking it further, in reality the luch will be moving, probably away from the penals, meaning the penals wont be able to get many shots off. You lose MP, the luchs get repaired for free.

I believe you missed the point of me mentioning Obers.



I take your point. Realistically, there are many cheap and easily available counters to the Luchs also, that are not Penals. Take the oft-spammed Guard Rifle Infantry with PTRS rifles, or even a single Zis gun. But the point still stands. It doesn't matter that there are counters to the Luchs, because the Luchs is balanced. In fact, the Luchs is pretty sucky and only stands a chance against enemies who have no potential to deal damage to it (which, as it happens, is no troop... (actually, idk if the shock troops have any AT capability) watch the Luchs reverse away frantically from a single Conscript squad).

Let's consider one Penal squad and two Conscripts. Conscripts Oohrah up to the Luchs as it tries to reverse and bugger out its engine with two anti-tank grenades (25 muni each) as well as dealing considerable damage. Penals can now outrun the Luchs, and are able to slap a 45 muni satchel on it, destroying it. That's a mere 95 muni to destroy a 265 MP and 60 fuel vehicle. Meanwhile, the Conscripts/Penals are unlucky if they have lost a single model. That is how bad the Luchs is. Test it, be my guest. I did (with a friend, to rule out AI derp).

And if I missed the point of you mentioning Obers, then please clarify.
30 Jun 2017, 14:21 PM
#34
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 610 | Subs: 1



I take your point. Realistically, there are many cheap and easily available counters to the Luchs also, that are not Penals. Take the oft-spammed Guard Rifle Infantry with PTRS rifles, or even a single Zis gun. But the point still stands. It doesn't matter that there are counters to the Luchs, because the Luchs is balanced. In fact, the Luchs is pretty sucky and only stands a chance against enemies who have no potential to deal damage to it (which, as it happens, is no troop... watch the Luchs reverse away frantically from a single Conscript squad).

Let's consider one Penal squad and two Conscripts. Conscripts Oohrah up to the Luchs before it can reverse and bugger out its engine with two anti-tank grenades (25 muni each) as well as dealing considerable damage. Penals can now outrun the Luchs, and are able to slap a 45 muni satchel on it, destroying it. That's a mere 95 muni to destroy a 265 MP and 60 fuel vehicle. Meanwhile, the Conscripts/Penals are unlucky if they have lost a single model. That is how bad the Luchs is. Test it, be my guest. I did (with a friend, to rule out AI derp).

And if I missed the point of you mentioning Obers, then please clarify.


Outlining an ideal situation is not a good argument to say that penals are OP.

My point about the Obers was that you must properly factor in the available and reasonable counters to a unit before you cry OP. The luch is a very good counter, mg's are a very good counter. A Kubel + sturms can effectively outfight anything in the first few mins.
30 Jun 2017, 14:29 PM
#35
avatar of Kill3rCat

Posts: 32



Outlining an ideal situation is not a good argument to say that penals are OP.

My point about the Obers was that you must properly factor in the available and reasonable counters to a unit before you cry OP. The luch is a very good counter, mg's are a very good counter. A Kubel + sturms can effectively outfight anything in the first few mins.


Obersoldaten are late-game anti-infantry infantry. Late-game is less about unit cost, and more about usefulness : popcap ratio. In fact, by the late game Penals have become obsolete once the SU armour rolls out and OST/OKW rocket arty has also, so Obersoldaten are not even relevant. I only included them for the sake of comparison. Penals dominate early-game, and they often dominate early-game so hard that there isn't much of a late-game left.

The OST MG-42 is an OK counter, provided you manage to keep it alive. You cannot PUSH with an MG-42, thus you cannot take out mortars which are pummeling your MG-42, since those mortars are being guarded by a Penal horde in all probability... which will wipe the floor with almost any infantry you send towards them. You could try and send a 222 through the Penal horde to take care of the mortars, but in all probability it'll start raining cheap-as-chips satchel charges, or they'll be a Zis gun waiting. This takes us back to the 'counter-to-the-counter', which would be to mortar their Zis gun, but then they can mortar your mortar and have a horde of Penals or perhaps a CE squad to recrew any decrewed weapons.

The OKW MG-34 is NOT a counter, it is a pile of unusable scrap metal. Likewise, the Luchs is impotent and does very little damage.
30 Jun 2017, 15:12 PM
#36
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 820 | Subs: 5

If you think Penals are OP, then please. PLEASE play PVP. As Soviets.
If you get a 1000 game win streak, I will believe you.

But conscripts are not worth it cost effectiveness wise. Most recent
patch gives them a -50% accuracy nerf on equipped weapons? (includes PPSH)

Maxim nerfed into the ground.
DDSHK nerfed
Guards nerfed.
T-35 mine nerfed
Demo pack nerfed
Flare mine nerfed (!)
Dual sniper nerfed even more (!)

Penals have been nerfed from original and had their flamethrowers removed.
Giving them PTRD rifles was so it wouldn't be auto guard commander all the
time.

Penals were not a problem before. "Maxim spam was". And the Penals were
stronger (and so were the conscripts!) then. Why have you only just now
discovered this?

When I play Germany, I know what soviets are capable of, and eat them alive.

I find - very - amusing, when you talk of Penals + Mortars in same sentence.

"I know MGs hard counter Penals, but Soviets can counter MGs with mortars"

"Panzers can be countered with AT guns, but AT guns can be countered by
grenades. ie: Grenades are OP".

Edit : Not to mention that allies are much harder for beginners to get into.
Nerfing allies endlessly ... is problematic.
Platying Germany is much more noob friendly.

PS2 : German equivalents are always better. But Soviets get them slightly earlier.

Conscripts vs Grenadiers.
Penals vs PanzerGrenadiers.

This is why you have trouble.

As for Luch being useless, all light vehicles were nerfed vs AI recently. ALL of them.
Even Allied ones. The Luch is one of those that were the least nerfed. Overall, this lead
to Penals being perceived as problematic where they were not before.

Un-nurf Luch, you need to un-nerf Quad AA Halftrack and others... which ends up german inf being
raped harder and so on.

30 Jun 2017, 15:14 PM
#37
avatar of Mcq_knight

Posts: 43



Outlining an ideal situation is not a good argument to say that penals are OP.

My point about the Obers was that you must properly factor in the available and reasonable counters to a unit before you cry OP. The luch is a very good counter, mg's are a very good counter. A Kubel + sturms can effectively outfight anything in the first few mins.


You need to factor in that one M3A1 will take those kubel out in seconds. Rarely do people go t1 and only go penals.
30 Jun 2017, 15:23 PM
#38
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

So we just have to acknowledge the fact that penals are a ´problem´, but we can´t offer any counters to said problem? What is the point of this thread then?

A lot of people provide viable solutions, yet they are put aside because: "let's not get into the counter to counter to counter play!"

Wut?
30 Jun 2017, 15:25 PM
#39
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

If you think Penals are OP, then please. PLEASE play PVP. As Soviets.
If you get a 1000 game win streak, I will believe you.

But conscripts are not worth it cost effectiveness wise. Most recent
patch gives them a -50% accuracy nerf on equipped weapons? (includes PPSH)

Maxim nerfed into the ground.
DDSHK nerfed
Guards nerfed.
T-35 mine nerfed
Demo pack nerfed
Flare mine nerfed (!)
Dual sniper nerfed even more (!)

Penals have been nerfed from original and had their flamethrowers removed.
Giving them PTRD rifles was so it wouldn't be auto guard commander all the
time.

Penals were not a problem before. "Maxim spam was". And the Penals were
stronger (and so were the conscripts!) then. Why have you only just now
discovered this?

When I play Germany, I know what soviets are capable of, and eat them alive.

I find - very - amusing, when you talk of Penals + Mortars in same sentence.

"I know MGs hard counter Penals, but Soviets can counter MGs with mortars"

"Panzers can be countered with AT guns, but AT guns can be countered by
grenades. ie: Grenades are OP".

Edit : Not to mention that allies are much harder for beginners to get into.
Nerfing allies endlessly ... is problematic.
Platying Germany is much more noob friendly.

PS2 : German equivalents are always better. But Soviets get them slightly earlier.

Conscripts vs Grenadiers.
Penals vs PanzerGrenadiers.

This is why you have trouble.

As for Luch being useless, all light vehicles were nerfed vs AI recently. ALL of them.
Even Allied ones. The Luch is one of those that were the least nerfed. Overall, this lead
to Penals being perceived as problematic where they were not before.

Un-nurf Luch, you need to un-nerf Quad AA Halftrack and others... which ends up german inf being
raped harder and so on.


I really would not advice new players to play ostheer.(because germans so noob friendly)

Do you know how i spot biased fanboys? They think axis=axis but axis=okw+ostheer. They first of these 2 can be played by a monkey atm, the second one on the other hand is pretty sure the thoughest faction to play because of various reasons( i can list them if you really want too).

Same applies to these guys saying allies=allies ofc.
30 Jun 2017, 15:26 PM
#40
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 820 | Subs: 5

The real problem is that, in the name of not limiting soviet options,
they have done nothing but make the only worthwhile meta be Penal spam.

However, consider US : Rifle Spam
British : vickers, Infantry Squad Spam

And so forth. Most factions have pretty restrictive openings.
Soviets used to have a lot more options. Recent patches have
made Penal Spam the only - worthwhile - option.
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