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Emplacements need a major redesign

Do you think that British emplacements are OK in terms of power/skill balance in the game? Should they be changed?
Option Distribution Votes
19%
24%
45%
13%
Total votes: 80
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
26 May 2017, 10:57 AM
#1
avatar of mediev

Posts: 93

Maybe it was always like this, but just recently, I noticed an increase in Brits going emplacements in 1v1s. I think this needs to stop, the sooner the better. I am sure these arguments have already been said a hundred times, so I will be brief. The skill differential between building an emplacement and destroying it is IMMENSE! It disproportionately rewards low-micro play and ultimately ruins the British faction. Players with no micro or general gameplay skills whatsoever are allowed to punch far above their weight, annoying better players with this cancer of a build, and making for a boring gameplay overall.

The problem is not even that they win so often, because usually, they are too incompetent with the rest of their units, resorting to PIAT blobbing and Comet spam(both of which have thankfully been nerfed recently). The problem is that this is in the game to begin with, and it works reasonably well, despite the ridiculously low amount of management it requires. In a balanced game, stuff like this should get beaten right off the bat.

A good place to start would be to limit emplacements to 1 of each, so you can´t build 2 Mortar Pits. Another step would be to radically nerf the Brace ability(either the damage reduction or duration of it). Furthermore, and this is especially important, the Counter-Battery ability from the Advanced Emplacements commander has to go away, because it is an ability that counters its own commanders hard-counter, which is heavy artillery. If it is removed, you can just hard-counter emplacements with heavy artillery(which is a big sacrifice, because commanders with heavy artillery are usually pretty bad, not to mention building the thing in the first place). Replace it with something like Early Warning, where artillery fires flares, so your Mortar Pit can keep up its barrage.

And if you think that these changes would discourage players from using emplacements... I mean honestly, DOES ANYONE CARE? We all know that emplacements do not work well for the balance or the joy of gameplay. I have seen almost every caster of CoH2 complain about emplacements at one point or another, so I can´t be alone in thinking this. So I added a poll where you can express your opinions. Thank you for your feedback.
26 May 2017, 11:04 AM
#2
avatar of Nubb3r

Posts: 141

I am not for limiting emplacements, but rather nerfing their idle/automatic effectiveness. That means reducing rate of fire/firing delay, accuracy, increasing spread of autofire etc. Keep active barrage as is or even buff it.

The emplacements imo would feel a lot better to be hit by, if you knew that your opponent was actually using them actively. This is just about the mortar pit though, since the other ones behave like bunkers or paks and can't be much interacted with.

Thus, I am only really seeing the mortar pit as a problem, because it does too much for the player with too little investment in terms of micro. I am against making them any more expensive or nerfing them per se, but rather nerfing their idle/automatic effectiveness.
26 May 2017, 11:46 AM
#3
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1201

Brace needs to cost ammunition. There is no real drawback to it. Your emplacement not fighting for 30 seconds while being invincible is hardly an investment.
26 May 2017, 13:16 PM
#4
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

The drawback is you can't move the thing lol.

If you want to get rid of them, the only thing you can do is make a mobile variant of each.., (except mbe AT gun, which needs to have its pop adjusted).

Simply limiting them is not fair. The other player (if he has any brain whatsoever) will just move to the other side of the map until he counters them.


(also inb4 Donnie)
26 May 2017, 13:26 PM
#5
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 932

Yeah, it would be a lot more fun if emplacements would be a hull-down ability for moving units and not have brace
26 May 2017, 13:52 PM
#6
avatar of mediev

Posts: 93

The drawback is you can't move the thing lol.

If you want to get rid of them, the only thing you can do is make a mobile variant of each.., (except mbe AT gun, which needs to have its pop adjusted).

Simply limiting them is not fair. The other player (if he has any brain whatsoever) will just move to the other side of the map until he counters them.


(also inb4 Donnie)


But that is the problem in 1v1. Maps are generally very small. If you build them in the center, where exactly can the enemy go to ignore them? "until he counters them" May I ask you how exactly can you counter a SimCity made of a Bofors, 2 Mortar Pits, Forward Assembly, AT gun, PIAT Sappers/IS and Vickers? I have actually encountered this with Ostheer on Angoville, about a week ago. He rushed straight for my cut-off by the haystacks, capped it and built a SimCity directly in the center of the map(and yes, mortar pits could reach almost the whole map). I beat him in the end, but only just, while his only tactic was charging blobs into MGs and hoping the Mortar Pits would clear out all the resistance. It didn´t matter where I went, I was always under constant bombardment, and whenever he wanted, he just unleashed his blob. The amount of squad wipes that I suffered without him using any tactics or micro is just cancerous. People SHOULD NOT get away with stuff like that.
26 May 2017, 14:11 PM
#7
avatar of scratchedpaintjob
Donator 11

Posts: 1019 | Subs: 1

my proposal
-small cost increase on bofors
-bofors pen decreased
-autofiring range for mortar pit reduced
-brace costs 40 muns

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2017, 13:52 PMmediev

I have actually encountered this with Ostheer on Angoville, about a week ago.

My advice: Have spearhead in your loadout, get the mortar halftrack (with flame nades and such) and bombard him to death
26 May 2017, 14:14 PM
#8
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3046

Yes yes emplacements are stupid but they also suck ass compared to what you could do with those resources. I think they need a major, major rework, not just nerfing this or that. If he had two mortar pits and a forward assembly, he probably doesn't have much of an army, so just spread out and cap the edges (where fuel and stuff usually is anyway), making sure to avoid the vision that points give, and you can either build a howitzer in your base or a heavy tank to break his sim city.

I hate using emplacements and I wish they took some more skill, and were also a less all-in strategy, and more of a supporting element of the brits' army. However, nerfing them into the ground still doesn't make sense. They just need a major major rework.
26 May 2017, 14:15 PM
#9
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2017, 13:52 PMmediev


But that is the problem in 1v1. Maps are generally very small. If you build them in the center, where exactly can the enemy go to ignore them? "until he counters them" May I ask you how exactly can you counter a SimCity made of a Bofors, 2 Mortar Pits, Forward Assembly, AT gun, PIAT Sappers/IS and Vickers? I have actually encountered this with Ostheer on Angoville, about a week ago. He rushed straight for my cut-off by the haystacks, capped it and built a SimCity directly in the center of the map(and yes, mortar pits could reach almost the whole map). I beat him in the end, but only just, while his only tactic was charging blobs into MGs and hoping the Mortar Pits would clear out all the resistance. It didn´t matter where I went, I was always under constant bombardment, and whenever he wanted, he just unleashed his blob. The amount of squad wipes that I suffered without him using any tactics or micro is just cancerous. People SHOULD NOT get away with stuff like that.


I'm not claiming they are ok for 1v1. They need work. Limiting them is not the answer though. I think brits would actually like a mobile alternative themselves.

OKW has the easiest time with ISG. Ost has harder time, but there are counters. Mortar halftrack being the best imo.
26 May 2017, 14:23 PM
#10
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3046



I'm not claiming they are ok for 1v1. They need work. Limiting them is not the answer though. I think brits would actually like a mobile alternative themselves.

OKW has the easiest time with ISG. Ost has harder time, but there are counters. Mortar halftrack being the best imo.

+1
When I play brits I'd rather have mobile options instead of emplacements, and I go with the aec and commandos instead, but that means I have 0 indirect fire, which is really frustrating.

As far as ost goes, mortar halftrack is a very good option, especially with the incendiary round and is basically uncountetable without aec to dive it until they get a Cromwell. Double GrW also does it as long as the crew doesn't bunch up and you don't stick both the mortars right next to each other like a lot of noobs do. You can always just recrew with pios if they get wiped.

Okw can also make their own simcity with isgs and flakhq and sanic repair speed sturmpios
26 May 2017, 14:40 PM
#11
avatar of IA3 - HH

Posts: 289

my proposal
-small cost increase on bofors
-bofors pen decreased
-autofiring range for mortar pit reduced
-brace costs 40 muns


+1
26 May 2017, 14:48 PM
#12
avatar of mediev

Posts: 93

Yes yes emplacements are stupid but they also suck ass compared to what you could do with those resources. I think they need a major, major rework, not just nerfing this or that. If he had two mortar pits and a forward assembly, he probably doesn't have much of an army, so just spread out and cap the edges (where fuel and stuff usually is anyway), making sure to avoid the vision that points give, and you can either build a howitzer in your base or a heavy tank to break his sim city.

I hate using emplacements and I wish they took some more skill, and were also a less all-in strategy, and more of a supporting element of the brits' army. However, nerfing them into the ground still doesn't make sense. They just need a major major rework.


Have you read the post? The mortar pits could reach every VP, both fuels and both munis. He had a pretty decent army. I guess that is what happens when you can just sit back and recruit more stuff. All he had to do was get vision and I was immediately hit by 2 mortar pits, not to mention he sat on my cut-off with that SimCity, so even if I wanted to cap the other fuel, it would be useless and I just would get wiped by a Bofors on retreat. Even if you avoid the vision from the point, he can just bombard it blindly, it costs nothing, and with 2 mortar pits, he will hit something eventually. Like I said, I beat him eventually, that is not the problem. The problem is that someone with this little skill, with only his one "strategy", could waste 50 minutes of my time by an incredibly boring gameplay, while he himself had to do almost nothing. THAT is what infuriates me about this bullshit! It ruins the quality of the game, not the balance per se.
26 May 2017, 14:51 PM
#13
avatar of mediev

Posts: 93


+1
When I play brits I'd rather have mobile options instead of emplacements, and I go with the aec and commandos instead, but that means I have 0 indirect fire, which is really frustrating.

As far as ost goes, mortar halftrack is a very good option, especially with the incendiary round and is basically uncountetable without aec to dive it until they get a Cromwell. Double GrW also does it as long as the crew doesn't bunch up and you don't stick both the mortars right next to each other like a lot of noobs do. You can always just recrew with pios if they get wiped.

Okw can also make their own simcity with isgs and flakhq and sanic repair speed sturmpios


Against double mortar pit, it is pure RNG. The mortar pit might counter fire and hit the halftrack, killing it instantly. That is not a real counter. Especially since it costs fuel, too.
26 May 2017, 15:32 PM
#14
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2017, 14:48 PMmediev


Have you read the post? The mortar pits could reach every VP, both fuels and both munis. He had a pretty decent army. I guess that is what happens when you can just sit back and recruit more stuff. All he had to do was get vision and I was immediately hit by 2 mortar pits, not to mention he sat on my cut-off with that SimCity, so even if I wanted to cap the other fuel, it would be useless and I just would get wiped by a Bofors on retreat. Even if you avoid the vision from the point, he can just bombard it blindly, it costs nothing, and with 2 mortar pits, he will hit something eventually. Like I said, I beat him eventually, that is not the problem. The problem is that someone with this little skill, with only his one "strategy", could waste 50 minutes of my time by an incredibly boring gameplay, while he himself had to do almost nothing. THAT is what infuriates me about this bullshit! It ruins the quality of the game, not the balance per se.


He was sat on your cut off with all this stuff, and you were unable to dislodge him to damage the emplacements for the entire game?

Have you got a replay of this infamous game? It's starting to sound a little like you need to step up your game.
26 May 2017, 15:32 PM
#15
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2017, 14:51 PMmediev


Against double mortar pit, it is pure RNG. The mortar pit might counter fire and hit the halftrack, killing it instantly. That is not a real counter. Especially since it costs fuel, too.


What? lol
26 May 2017, 15:40 PM
#16
avatar of Waegukin

Posts: 609

Yeah, it would be a lot more fun if emplacements would be a hull-down ability for moving units and not have brace


100% this or some variation of mobile crew + firing platform.
aaa
26 May 2017, 15:46 PM
#17
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1484

noobs still hope they ll gett free wins with their redesigns
26 May 2017, 16:18 PM
#18
avatar of FG127820

Posts: 101

You hardly see high-level players spam emplacements, but 1-2 pits are hard to take out if supported properly. Any decent player will try to push back your mortar/leigs or go skill burst.

In mid-level tier, they are very annoying and not fun to play against; the key is pushing for the emplacement as soon as it's built in early game when there is little support for it (you opponent just sunk a lot of MP and unlikely to get an AT gun) so a fast Luchs or AT on it is very effective. Remember the best cure is prevention.
26 May 2017, 16:25 PM
#19
avatar of mediev

Posts: 93



He was sat on your cut off with all this stuff, and you were unable to dislodge him to damage the emplacements for the entire game?

Have you got a replay of this infamous game? It's starting to sound a little like you need to step up your game.


It was a week ago, I don´t have it anymore. And as I said, I won in the end, as I usually do against emplacement spam. My point, and the point of this whole thread is to talk about the disproportionate power of the emplacements relative to the micro they require. I never said I was a great player, but I know enough not to upgrade my Tommies with nothing but PIATs and charge them into MGs in a mega blob, getting outflanked by Pgrens every single time without doing anything about it.. I sure was a much better player than that guy. What pissed me off was that such a cheese almost worked out for him. I didn´t play perfectly of course, I made mistakes. I only mentioned that game to demonstrate that it is often not so easy to just "go somewhere else" on a 1v1 map. It ultimately screws up the quality of matches where Brits are involved and makes the game both boring to watch and boring to play. It is like banning biting, hair pulling, groin shots and eyepokes in the UFC. They are part of actual fighting, but it will do no good to have them allowed in the ring. The emplacements are the same, the are a foul. The value you get is not balanced towards the micro you put in. That´s why they need to be changed IMO.
26 May 2017, 16:29 PM
#20
avatar of mediev

Posts: 93

You hardly see high-level players spam emplacements, but 1-2 pits are hard to take out if supported properly. Any decent player will try to push back your mortar/leigs or go skill burst.

In mid-level tier, they are very annoying and not fun to play against; the key is pushing for the emplacement as soon as it's built in early game when there is little support for it (you opponent just sunk a lot of MP and unlikely to get an AT gun) so a fast Luchs or AT on it is very effective. Remember the best cure is prevention.


I know that, but what if you don´t see it? You are screwed and have to begin the annoying process of countering it(which is very boring and by no means reliable). Maybe I am old-fashioned, but being annoyed is not an emotion you should get after simply seeing an emplacement. Again, we are back to my original point. The prevention, or possible liquidation of the emplacement spam requires disproportionately high amount of micro compared to the emplacement spam itself.
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