T1 viability

Making T1 viable.
First of all, i'll rather go for a T1 AT less design. This means:

Penals: leave them as a strong unit. They should be good, not spamable.
-Remove the extra accuracy at vet3 and fiddle with reinforce cost/build-reinforce time/popcap.
-AT wise, if needed, keep the AT satchel gated behind the AT nade.
-Flamethrower, at first leave them with PPSH (cost around 75). If still too strong, you could lock it down behind molotovs (with or without PPSH) or increase price.
Just change the upgrade names to Anti garrison package and Anti vehicle package.

Sniper: i've already suggested a more deep sniper/spotter theme while the unit focus should be sight.
-Squad retains cloak for half the time of other snipers (OH/UKF) after leaving cover so they can actually move around. (If unit is too strong this is the first thing to remove)
-Sniper rifle is not transferred to remaining squad member. Each model will work differently in the same fashion as squad with officers.
-Make sniper model (M1) get normal infantry sight (35). Increase HP to 82.
-Make spotter model (M2) get increased sight (45>50). Doesn't shoot hits Rifle, reduce HP from 68 to 48, in charge of firing flare. Spotter model reinforce cost to 60 from 90
-Flare are vet 0 again. Reveals cloaked units. Cost from 45 (?) to 35/30
-Vet1: spotter gains +10 sight when still n cloaked.

M3: utility for late game is an option.
-Regarding the unit itself i see 3 approaches.
A)Keep the current model (clowncar) and improve vet requirements.
B)Nerf clowncar capabilities. Say can't shoot while on the move but can while stationary (nerf to PTRS/flamethrower) or heavily increase penalties while on the move (mostly cooldown so PTRS/Flame can still shoot but few burst). Reduce fuel cost from 15 to 10.
C)Units can't shoot while inside (somehow kills the soul of the unit). Reduce fuel cost to 5 or 0.
-About utility for late. Once medics are unlocked and T3 built, unlock medical supplies (current LIVE version of Sturms vet1, not the improved one).

No they weren't. No one wanting to REALLY win with SU bother going T1 on 1v1 and barely usable on 2v2+ (flamer clowncar against OKW)....
They will lose the mp attrition war against people of same skill level.

Just because the spamming penal did not work does not mean that the unit was not balanced. One got what he paid for...

On the other hand almost doubling the far accuracy of semi-autonomic weapon (instead of replacing it with a bolt action) for a unit that gains mostly accuracy bonuses was like asking for trouble...

I do not actually agree with the attrition argument since Penal where cheap to reinforce and could become even cheaper via merge.

You had a glasscannon unit which suffer simil problems with PG. Since the whole squad is compound of the same weapon, losing models drops DPS faster than having weapon upgrades been transferred.

I don't really agree with the glass-cannon characterization either since 6 men squad are not really "glass-cannons". Osstturppen are more durable than grenadier although of the huge difference in target size. Penal have more EFH than conscripts and if they are glass cannons conscripts are more glass and less cannons.

The problem of PG is quite different the come to late and cost too much...By the time the come out infantry fights are mostly over and they hold very little shock value...

I'll argue that actually implementing the PPSH from the get-go (nerfing long range capabilities) and adjusting the extra +30% acc at vet3 should had been enough to avoid Rifles 2.0. If something else was needed, increasing popcap, reinforce and build time would had helped.

I agree. The unit does get ridiculous high accuracy bonus and to make thing even worse it get more DPS form the vet 1 ability.

But I would rather not make this another thread about Penals lets leave that to other threads.

If I understand correctly you do seem to agree Penal need minor adjustments and T1 can become more viable either for start or for back tech by fixing the other units in it.

The fact that this patch has toned down the shock value or timing of Light vehicles by itself makes T1 more viable for Soviets.

Just because the spamming penal did not work does not mean that the unit was not balanced. One got what he paid for...

T1 and specially Penals, saw absolute 0 action in a broad sense. Why would you spend resources on tech for a unit which doesn't perform much better than conscripts (0-15 Penals, 15/35 Cons), it's more expensive and has 0 AT capabilities.

I do not actually agree with the attrition argument since Penal where cheap to reinforce and could become even cheaper via merge.

I don't really agree with the glass-cannon characterization either since 6 men squad are not really "glass-cannons". Osstturppen are more durable than grenadier although of the huge difference in target size. Penal have more EFH than conscripts and if they are glass cannons conscripts are more glass and less cannons.

There was not much difference in cost between Penals and Cons (so no much more benefit on merge). Even when they fixed the veterancy bug, Penals remained useless. Cons got access to -40% RA at vet 3 which makes them more resilience on top of their cost and lack of teching requirement.

Glass cannons on the sense that they drop their damage fast in comparison to most other squads. Till vet 2, you can't hoorah to get closer and do damage. By the time squads get vet2, your models are gonna get focused down by your opponents vet2 LMG squads.

How do you fix this? By vetting them early on with an M3 and flamethrower and chasing down units on retreat.
But after extensively playing 2v2 at that time, IIRC, my conclusion for 90% of the games was that i'll rather go 2 Cons + 2 CE rather than trying to play with Penals. At most a single one for utility (satchel). If i ever lost it, i'll rather get a Guard or another conscript.

On the other hand almost doubling the far accuracy of semi-autonomic weapon (instead of replacing it with a bolt action) for a unit that gains mostly accuracy bonuses was like asking for trouble..

That's your personal opinion. Semi automatic rifles doesn't mean that it has to be ineffective at range, neither in the game (look at G43 vs Kar) nor IRL. Gaining accuracy or any other type of offensive stat is the same. It affects DPS but at that point it is either offset by enemy veterancy or in the battlefield (yellow cover everywhere).

If I understand correctly you do seem to agree Penal need minor adjustments and T1 can become more viable either for start or for back tech by fixing the other units in it.

Yes. Already nerfing vet requirements and vet 3 Acc is a good start. I don't want Penals converted into Rifles/Guards 2.0, but i want to nerf mass productio of them and sustain. With the nerfs to guards on top, we should be on the right track.

The fact that this patch has toned down the shock value or timing of Light vehicles by itself makes T1 more viable for Soviets.

BINGO! There's too much focus on Penals, when the biggest predators are been nerfed.

That's your personal opinion. Semi automatic rifles doesn't mean that it has to be ineffective at range, neither in the game (look at G43 vs Kar) nor IRL.

Going off Topic a bit here but G43 are a weapon upgrade and weapon upgrades do not perform as default weapon.

That can be easily seen in PPsh where the Default shock PPsh is far superior at close (5) the Cons PPsh but far inferior further way. That imo is direct byproduct of Relics instance to make weapon upgrades replace some of the unit weapon and not all of them.

Imo thing would work allot better if all weapon where replaced instead of half (accept in the case of lmgs). For instance conscripts could get either 6 PPsh (shock curve) or 6 SVT (pre 21st June patch curve.)

Gaining accuracy or any other type of offensive stat is the same. It affects DPS but at that point it is either offset by enemy veterancy or in the battlefield (yellow cover everywhere).

Not exactly, Penal get more DPS bonuses and less defensive than the majority of other units. In addition the type of DPS bonus fits different weapon types only accuracy bonuses would help Shock very little but would benefit fast firing weapons with decent accuracy far too much.

I really see no problem replacing one of the accuracy bonuses with cool down (or reload or any other stat instead of accuracy) as in the case of most other infantries, especially since vet 1 ability contributes to accuracy also. (If one want to actually make them "glass-cannons" one would have imo have to reduce number of entities)

Gonna put things on spoiler to make it more TL;DR


No they weren't. No one wanting to REALLY win with SU bother going T1 on 1v1 and barely usable on 2v2+ (flamer clowncar against OKW).
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That's both the strength and weakness of the SU faction design. When you have 21 commander which all of them share abilities, the one with the strongest combination for the current meta will be used.
We are moving from "every faction has bs units so it's balanced" and more towards a more fair environment although it's harder to achieve. Problem is when you nerf something into fair/slightly bad and you still have bs, then you completely forget about using it. Just to mention a few things which WERE heavily used: KV8, B4, 152 Howtizer, Shocks.


Talking about viability of T1.

History:
M3:
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Sniper:
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Penals:
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Nice one !

Not exactly, Penal get more DPS bonuses and less defensive than the majority of other units. In addition the type of DPS bonus fits different weapon types only accuracy bonuses would help Shock very little but would benefit fast firing weapons with decent accuracy far too much.

Penals receive an extra 30% acc bonus at vet 3. For the other vet bonus at vet 2 and vet3 is the standard (same as Grens regarding RA).
Regarding accuracy, that's not how it works. Due to how the formula to calculate DPS is done, changing either damage or accuracy translate directly into DPS gain. It doesn't matter the type of weapon. Reload and cooldown are worst because they have less weight in the formula.

TIL note: in fact, it's actually worst for high accuracy weapons gaining accuracy as they can sometimes go over 1.0 value. As i said before, most of the time this is offset by cover and squads RA, but there are instances on where this happen due to vet and ability/auras.

Penals receive an extra 30% acc bonus at vet 3. For the other vet bonus at vet 2 and vet3 is the standard (same as Grens regarding RA).

Penals
vet1 4% accuracy, -2% weapon cooldown, and -3% received accuracy per member lost.
vet2 +30% accuracy -20% weapon cooldown

Conscript
vet2 +40% accuracy, +25% molotov range

Partisan Troops - Sub-Machineguns
-25% weapon cooldown

Guards Rifle Infantry
10% penetration, +30% accuracy, -17% received accuracy

Guards Rifle Infantry (Assault)
-25% weapon cooldown, -29% received accuracy

Shock Troops
-25% weapon cooldown, -17% received accuracy, -40% smoke grenade recharge

Grenadiers
+40% accuracy,

Panzergrenadiers
-25% weapon cooldown, -29% received accuracy
Riflemen
-23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

As you can see Vet Penals get one highest DPS increase by vet 2 compared to other soviet and axis infantry (although their starting weapons are quite good to begin with)and allot more than riflemen and Pgs that they area actually comparable to.

Only volks get similar vet 2 bonuses and those where designed for when they only had K98 access....

Penal veterancy ability and bonuses are an issue, but lest not focus on Penal as other threads do.

I think the road that was followed in the case of soviet call-in tanks could also be followed here.

As Soviet stock units have become increasingly better patch by patch there Call-in infantry could become less cost efficient and T1 could provide bonuses to call-in infantry to make both call-ins and T1 more appealing.

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And why you don't compare it with the total gain with vet 3 as well. Accuracy and receive accuracy are meant to cancel each other. A 30% accuracy increase is meant to be cancel by a -23% RA. A 40% increase, by a -29% RA.
If Penals were to see their extra accuracy removed or nerf at vet 3, it would be in line with all the other squads.

At vet 2, their scaling is in inferior to:
Conscripts, AT partisans, Guards, Assault Guards, Grens, PG, Assault Grens, Osstruppen, Storm, LT, Cpt, Ass Eng, Pathfinders, Volks, Ober, PF, Falls n JLI.

Once they lose 2 models, they are in line with or on top of them. So to actually be good you should be fighting at 3/6, hence the "risky" role of using them.
Vet 3 accuracy + Flamer combination with SVT and Oorah are the issues atm.

About cooldown/reload:
While i haven't done an exactly test for each type of weapon and range, in the past i did a test with Grens mid range Kar. Now i did the test with SVT. In comparison to it's value, cooldown represents a 25/33% and reload a 25-10% increase. Say you get a 20% cooldown reduction, it's would be roughly translate to a 5%-7% increase on DPS.

Another change on the M3 that could help make T1 more viable is:\
1) Remove the ability to transport and remove fuel cost. Now it role is to counter kubels, spot and harass
Now M3 can be used to spot Wer HMG and allow flanks without just bypassing the hmg and moving the troops behind it.

2) Allow a fuel upgrade (around 20) that now allows transporting units.
Now if one want to use the M3s for transport he will delay his other vehicles more.