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Suggesting Cone of Fire for the turretless TD

Suggesting Cone of Fire for all the turretless Tank Destroyer
Option Distribution Votes
76%
24%
Total votes: 25
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
30 Nov 2016, 15:27 PM
#1
avatar of Woofs

Posts: 11

Would it be a good idea to give all turretless TD(when positioning) a Cone of Fire like how we place our anti-tank guns? What are your opinion?
30 Nov 2016, 17:11 PM
#2
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

Sounds like a pretty sensible QoL change to me.
30 Nov 2016, 17:29 PM
#3
avatar of FichtenMoped
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Patrion 310

Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3

I wonder how this never came to my mind.
30 Nov 2016, 18:19 PM
#4
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

IMO, I don't think it is really required. There are is no setup timer for turretless stuff, thus you can always quickly reface to the enemy.

I would be opposed to this on account that it would make my UI too cluttered every time I have more than 4 Stug-E/G's on the field :(
30 Nov 2016, 18:37 PM
#5
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

IMO, I don't think it is really required. There are is no setup timer for turretless stuff, thus you can always quickly reface to the enemy.

I would be opposed to this on account that it would make my UI too cluttered every time I have more than 4 Stug-E/G's on the field :(

Stop spamming then you scrub!

I figured it's still be nice to micro stopping right at the edge of the cone of fire to shoot accurately as soon as possible, but visual noise is definitely a consideration I didn't think about though, especially since you'll a lot more likely to move numerous TDs at once compared to ATGs or HMGs. The tiny cones would also probably be harder to pick out easier compared to the weapon teams.
30 Nov 2016, 18:40 PM
#6
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

IMO, I don't think it is really required. There are is no setup timer for turretless stuff, thus you can always quickly reface to the enemy.

I would be opposed to this on account that it would make my UI too cluttered every time I have more than 4 Stug-E/G's on the field :(


There is none right now. But you must agree that vehicles loosing move penalty at the moment when stop button is pressed or they finish their order, is quite wrong. Vehicles should have a short "set up" time, so that the change between moving and stationary state wasn't instant. The barrel of a ww2 tank is doing really strange things when the tank is on the move and definitely never is pointing exactly at opponent like in coh2, thus additional aim time after moving is quite obvious.

I do know that this may be possibly hard to do and would need reballance of all vehicles with moving bonuses. Just pointing out how it should work in a polished game.

I also do like this "feature" as a micro trick, but it simply doesn't feel right.
30 Nov 2016, 18:44 PM
#7
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



There is none right now. But you must agree that vehicles loosing move penalty at the moment when stop button is pressed or they finish their order, is quite wrong. Vehicles should have a short "set up" time, so that the change between moving and stationary state wasn't instant. The barrel of a ww2 tank is doing really strange things when the tank is on the move and definitely never is pointing exactly at opponent like in coh2, thus additional aim time after moving is quite obvious.

I do know that this may be possibly hard to do and would need reballance of all vehicles with moving bonuses. Just pointing out how it should work in a polished game.

I also do like this "feature" as a micro trick, but it simply doesn't feel right.


Lifting speed penalties in a delayed manner is actually a good idea, and it's not difficult to implement. I just don't want to pepper the game code with too much stuff. It still needs to run on everyone's machine.
30 Nov 2016, 18:46 PM
#8
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



Lifting speed penalties in a delayed manner is actually a good idea, and it's not difficult to implement. I just don't want to pepper the game code with too much stuff. It still needs to run on everyone's machine.

I'd also imagine there'd be plenty of vitriol over doing it since it would make kiting blobs (the topic always on the average player's mind) harder for tanks.
30 Nov 2016, 19:00 PM
#9
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



Lifting speed penalties in a delayed manner is actually a good idea, and it's not difficult to implement. I just don't want to pepper the game code with too much stuff. It still needs to run on everyone's machine.


I didn't know it was so easy :D But would probably need some testing in unofficial mods to see how it shifts the meta.

There is another thing worth mentioning when we're at move penalties. Would it be possible to add toggle button for some vehicles that would block shooting when on the move? Some vehicles, mostly axis and soviet, need move-stop micro to work in 100%. Problem is, when you for some reason don't stop in time, the vehicle shoots a non accurate shot and reloads, while real crew member would instead wait for the vehicle to stop to shoot a good one. I think that such change would make microing vehicles like panther easier when chasing, thus lowering the number of complaints about ballance of such units.
30 Nov 2016, 19:02 PM
#10
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



I didn't know it was so easy :D But would probably need some testing in unofficial mods to see how it shifts the meta.

There is another thing worth mentioning when we're at move penalties. Would it be possible to add toggle button for some vehicles that would block shooting when on the move? Some vehicles, mostly axis and soviet, need move-stop micro to work in 100%. Problem is, when you for some reason don't stop in time, the vehicle shoots a non accurate shot and reloads, while real crew member would instead wait for the vehicle to stop to shoot a good one. I think that such change would make microing vehicles like panther easier when chasing, thus lowering the number of complaints about ballance of such units.


Sure. That's also very easy to do. If you could point me to an open slot in the UI that is common for all tanks, I could pitch it in :D

Otherwise, we could introduce such a button on a unit-by-unit basis. E.g., panther definitely needs it. Other tanks, not so much.


EDIT: Though, one implication of this change is that it might prevent the gun from tracking the enemy tank while you move. Allowing the cupola to track the enemy tank while moving will require a lot more workarounds.
30 Nov 2016, 19:13 PM
#11
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



Sure. That's also very easy to do. If you could point me to an open slot in the UI that is common for all tanks, I could pitch it in :D

Otherwise, we could introduce such a button on a unit-by-unit basis. E.g., panther definitely needs it. Other tanks, not so much.


EDIT: Though, one implication of this change is that it might prevent the gun from tracking the enemy tank while you move. Allowing the cupola to track the enemy tank while moving will require a lot more workarounds.


Yep, the tracking is a problem. But maybe a workaround could be to allow coaxial mg to fire, or even better, add another coaxial weapon that would have no graphical effects and no dps, but would track the target.
30 Nov 2016, 19:16 PM
#12
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



Yep, the tracking is a problem. But maybe a workaround could be to allow coaxial mg to fire, or even better, add another coaxial weapon that would have no graphical effects, but would track the target.


I think that could work. I have something like that in my mod for Crocodile/AVRE. Though it is hard trying to convince the gun to engage the same target as the aiming-weapon.
30 Nov 2016, 19:19 PM
#13
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



I think that could work. I have something like that in my mod for Crocodile/AVRE. Though it is hard trying to convince the gun to engage the same target as the aiming-weapon.


What if the gun couln't choose to rotate the turret and only shot at the targets in its sights, while this additional weapon would do the rotating and would be the one controlled by the user? This is how coaxial mg works right now, doesn't it?

EDIT: I do start to think on an edge case when there is more than one target in sights. Don't know how to solve it yet.
30 Nov 2016, 19:22 PM
#14
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



What if the gun couln't choose to rotate the turret and only shot at the targets in its sights, while this additional weapon would do the rotating and would be the one controlled by the user? This is how coaxial mg works right now, doesn't it?


You still can't control exactly which unit will be targeted. If I parametrise the turret too narrow, it will behave like the bugged 222-coaxial mg; almost never fire.

If I parametrise the turret too wide, it might engage some infantry right in front of the tank, etc.

If I make the turret also follow attack commands, this might cause the tank to autorotate to face the target, which is something you don't want. (rotation counts as movement). It's a lose-lose-sitation, basically.
30 Nov 2016, 19:24 PM
#15
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



You still can't control exactly which unit will be targeted. If I parametrise the turret too narrow, it will behave like the bugged 222-coaxial mg; almost never fire.

If I parametrise the turret too wide, it might engage some infantry right in front of the tank, etc.

If I make the turret also follow attack commands, this might cause the tank to autorotate to face the target, which is something you don't want. (rotation counts as movement). It's a lose-lose-sitation, basically.


Yeah, then maybe a weapon that would be on only when the tank is on the move and the toggle is on, that would keep rotation? There is no way to exchange targets between weapons I suppose?
30 Nov 2016, 19:30 PM
#16
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



Yeah, then maybe a weapon that would be on only when the tank is on the move and the toggle is on, that would keep rotation? There is no way to exchange targets between weapons I suppose?


Nope. You need to declare all hardpoints that can acquire targets statically, on the entity. If there is a way to exchange what can accept targets or not, I would like to know it!
30 Nov 2016, 19:32 PM
#17
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



Nope. You need to declare all hardpoints that can acquire targets statically, on the entity. If there is a way to exchange what can accept targets or not, I would like to know it!


Then its a matter of "Is it worth implementing, if it keeps the gun still?" :P
30 Nov 2016, 19:32 PM
#18
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



Then its a matter of "Is it worth implementing, if it keeps the gun still?" :P


I would go for hold fire on anything. Simple, it works, it's fun.
30 Nov 2016, 19:44 PM
#19
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



I would go for hold fire on anything. Simple, it works, it's fun.

IS THAT COMING!?

PLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASE I MISSED IT SO MUCH AFTER THEY ADDED PRIORITIZE
30 Nov 2016, 20:34 PM
#20
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Nov 2016, 19:44 PMVuther

IS THAT COMING!?

PLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASE I MISSED IT SO MUCH AFTER THEY ADDED PRIORITIZE


Someday. Though not yet :(

I think we've kind of locked the changes and QoL changes we want to introduce for next patch to the one that "there is absolutely no single person in CoH2 that won't think of this change as beneficial". For Hold Fire, there might exist a few people that will complain about lack of prioritse vehicle on AT guns, because they want to snipe infantry models/destroy cover with them.

Then, there is also the practical tradeoff that we will have to retest each one of those bugfixes/changes right before the final changes make it to the live game.

The procedure is not going to be a copy-paste one. Thus, there is the risk of human error. Thus, we wanted to keep the number of bugfixes concise enough so that we can check them thoroughly, so that no bugs propagate to the main game.
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