the problem with USF mortar

Anecdotal evidence is really convenient. I've also seen plenty of games since the hotfix where a mortar has only a couple of kills late into the game... It uses damage to force axis players to move but doesn't drop lots of models.

Seriously, watch any of tightrope's usf replays lately. They don't kill many models.

Biggest issue is dual scatter reduction in vet (no vet 1 ability). I'd love to see a direct lay ability that allows the mortar crew to engage with one round at short range (like a rifle grenade).

If you want, we can test some when I get my rig back. I'd be happy to scrim.

I think putting p4 to tier 0 on for ost would not be a buff is just diversifying the opener guys after all listen to the smart ally fan boy

It sounds like the Mortar is doing it's job, harrashing and forcing people to reposition, open points where USF can attack the enemy.
What's wrong with that?

It sounds like the Mortar is doing it's job, harrashing and forcing people to reposition, open points where USF can attack the enemy.
What's wrong with that?

It sounds like the mortar is wiping pretty consistently instead of dislodging/harrassing; This isnt anecdotal, this is whats happening. A USF T0 mortar needs to be the shittiest in the game and just needs smoke. It replaced the howitzer, that says something about its performance.
Even jove is really struggling as wehr against USF. When your mainline inf and indirect fire is worse and comes later than your enemy's, you can't really attack or defend.

It sounds like the Mortar is doing it's job, harrashing and forcing people to reposition, open points where USF can attack the enemy.
What's wrong with that?

The fact that one specific faction's entire infantry design relies on not being mobile. Before the mortar, this was countered by having the usage of grenades cost ammunition, thus effectively limiting the number of grenades and weapon upgrades that could be used by the USF player.

The mortar doesn't have that constriction, its only downside being a comparatively small amount of field presence being lost, which has never been a problem for USF in the first place and isn't one now.
In turn, this results in ever more double-BAR Riflemen down the line, which more than just laugh at LMG Grens, especially as the BAR works like an Assault Rifle in the game (with it being able to fire on the move) in all aspects. That would be okay, if there was some sort of trade-off available to deal with that newly found power.

And here comes the crux: Ostheer doesn't have that capability. There is no unit that allows you to take over initiative (in the "Kriegsspiel"-meaning) from your enemy. Or better worded, there are such units, but getting them is basically impossible at the time you need them.
I once discussed this in an earlier post, so I will go straight to the result: It is pretty easy to force Ostheer down a particular path, to dictate all their possible moves by assuming control during the early stages of a match. Sure, a good player won't let himself be forced to make a specific move at a specific time, so the spacial rules differ each match. But what kind of move is taken at what time is not up to the Ostheer player anymore, and that's why Ostheer feels so constrained.

The problem is, that the mortar is only a symptom here. This is nothing new, and it is nothing we haven't seen before (unless we didn't want to see it). This problem has existed from the beginning, and against the Soviets it was balanced through sheer DPS calculations. That worked rather worse-than-good, but it worked. In come the Americans, who further solidified on the Soviet idea in terms of execution (which is why USF feels more fun to play as, compared to Soviets, despite the Soviets being the better fleshed out faction), and the Tommies, which are Ostheer all over again, except without most of their weaknesses - most importantly the lack of a German faction that could capitalise on British weaknesses, a German USF faction so to speak.

Fixing the mortar, properly fixing it I mean, not Relic's idea of adjusting a few values, won't do anything against the basic problem. What happens next time USF gains a unit (through a new commander, just as a gedankenexperiment) that offers similar capabilities?

The fact that one specific faction's entire infantry design relies on not being mobile. Before the mortar, this was countered by having the usage of grenades cost ammunition, thus effectively limiting the number of grenades and weapon upgrades that could be used by the USF player.

The mortar doesn't have that constriction, its only downside being a comparatively small amount of field presence being lost, which has never been a problem for USF in the first place and isn't one now.
In turn, this results in ever more double-BAR Riflemen down the line, which more than just laugh at LMG Grens, especially as the BAR works like an Assault Rifle in the game (with it being able to fire on the move) in all aspects. That would be okay, if there was some sort of trade-off available to deal with that newly found power.

And here comes the crux: Ostheer doesn't have that capability. There is no unit that allows you to take over initiative (in the "Kriegsspiel"-meaning) from your enemy. Or better worded, there are such units, but getting them is basically impossible at the time you need them.
I once discussed this in an earlier post, so I will go straight to the result: It is pretty easy to force Ostheer down a particular path, to dictate all their possible moves by assuming control during the early stages of a match. Sure, a good player won't let himself be forced to make a specific move at a specific time, so the spacial rules differ each match. But what kind of move is taken at what time is not up to the Ostheer player anymore, and that's why Ostheer feels so constrained.

The problem is, that the mortar is only a symptom here. This is nothing new, and it is nothing we haven't seen before (unless we didn't want to see it). This problem has existed from the beginning, and against the Soviets it was balanced through sheer DPS calculations. That worked rather worse-than-good, but it worked. In come the Americans, who further solidified on the Soviet idea in terms of execution (which is why USF feels more fun to play as, compared to Soviets, despite the Soviets being the better fleshed out faction), and the Tommies, which are Ostheer all over again, except without most of their weaknesses - most importantly the lack of a German faction that could capitalise on British weaknesses, a German USF faction so to speak.

Fixing the mortar, properly fixing it I mean, not Relic's idea of adjusting a few values, won't do anything against the basic problem. What happens next time USF gains a unit (through a new commander, just as a gedankenexperiment) that offers similar capabilities?

I guess early game being strong early game and not easy to contain with MGs is unfair uh?
Who would have thought.

again, the mortar is a tradeoff. you can get away without teching grenades, but at the cost of more manpower/higher pop cap. in addition, the mortar doesn't instawipe squads or mg42s anymore, unlike a well-placed grenade.

ost suffers because of the 4-man squads, but they also have an early sniper, which works great with support from an MG and grens to counter and bleed aggressive rifle play.

It's more effective against a conservative enemy, but worse against a aggressive one. It's a trade-off that adds veriety, not a general buff. A buff would be if the faction was simply stronger against all builds, which isn't the case.

really, you guys are complaining about having access to one of the best mortar in the game? after complaining about lacking that very same units?

the USF get a free officer when they tech up , and access to one of the best light tank in the game. field presence is hardly an issue for the USF in the early game, especially against the wehr.

and the ostheer is conservative compared to the USF. Grenadier can't rush down and flush out rifleman. If the rifleman is using any sort of cover, it's going to turn into a protracted fight.

The mortar is STILL not on the level of the Ost mortar. It's barrage has a higher ROF, a lower scatter and is overall just better.

This of course is complemented by the fact that if the USF mortar is identical to OST mortar it's automatically better because Ostheer has 4 men squads and USF has riflemen.

ostheer shafted yet again

Gotta agree. When US has instant access to mortars its killing team games especially

really, you guys are complaining about having access to one of the best mortar in the game? after complaining about lacking that very same units?

the USF get a free officer when they tech up , and access to one of the best light tank in the game. field presence is hardly an issue for the USF in the early game, especially against the wehr.

and the ostheer is conservative compared to the USF. Grenadier can't rush down and flush out rifleman. If the rifleman is using any sort of cover, it's going to turn into a protracted fight.

i'm not complaining at all. i'm sick of people whining about balance, when most of their complaints are a L2P issue.

and before you call me an allied fanboy, check my playercard. i'm not the best, but i actually have a ton of games as OH and OKW. so get bent.

if i had my druthers, i'd modify USF mortar to be more in line with mirage's suggestions... but again, i'm not worried about it right now.

Not hard... Pay attention and keep your squads moving. It only becomes really punishing if you blob or keep your guys still.

am i supposed to go full on rifleman with bolt action grenadiers? you gotta be gardening joking, nice person

yeah just keep moving to avoid Turbo Mortar all day all night Kappa
even its not OP anymore but still wipe 4-men squad Kappa

The introduction of a powerful T0 mortar (as opposed to what originally was planned, namely a weak 60mm one) was a clear game design error. The disbalancing consequences for OH which relies on static infantry play are obvious.

And due to the synergy effect not only the mortar becomes a problem but the saved ammu as well as it allows more BAR equipped rushing Riflemen squads increasing the pressure on OH even more.

I think the motor was necessary, but the big issue is that Grens are super vulrable to AOE explosives, and the mere existence of USF's motor really hurts Gren preservation. double motars and motar pits both devaste Grenadiers, and OST are the only faction that has this unique problem of entire squads being blown away by random explosives.

Ostheer grens need gren cover to not get buttfucked by Rifles early game. The mortar prevents that and wipes them with a good ratio. MG42 are useless thanks to the USF mortar, the GrW34 (Ostheer mortar) is useless against the USF mortar aswell.

So you are left with pios that lose every engagement against Rifles, with Grens without cover that lose every engagement against rifles and the sniper that will be rushed by rifles because your MG42 is already dead because of the USF mortar.

I don't get Relic's logic. Why buff the best early game even further while nerfing the Germans even more? Wow, pios can build sandbags for green cover that gets blasted by the mortar in a second.

The mortar was in no way necessary. USF has nades that come with smoke aswell. The game was somehow balanced before because USF couldn't get out the Stuart as fast and Ostheer has no reliable counter against the stuart. Now the stuart arrives around the first 222 (no PaK, no Panzershrecks) while the mortar bleeds everything the German has. I played a game yesterday which I left after 5 minutes where I lost more than 30 men (in 5 minutes!) - All behind cover or in buildings.

After that my enemy wrote "haha noob" and I admit that I searched him on this board because I was so salty that I would have given him a perma ban.

The USF mortar is still far to accurate and damaging. The unit should have functioned as a way to get smoke while avoiding the cost of teching nades, but paying a higher MP cost. Instead if functions as a straight upgrade to the Ost mortar and denies any form of static play, which Ost must have to beat USF.

Either the USF mortar needs to change or it needs to be removed, because if this is the mortar they want in the game I don't want it at all.

Stop making artillery units super good. Christ.

I guess early game being strong early game and not easy to contain with MGs is unfair uh?
Who would have thought.

No, the US shouldn't be "easy to contain with MGs", that's exactly why thy have smoke grenades on their most important infantry unit (and on their infantry support tank). A well placed smoke grenade is all it needs to counter an MG, and that is good.

The problem is, that the mortar doesn't have the same limitations, while offering the very same capabilities. No more ammunition drain, no more strategical decision whether to go for grenades (against an enemy using many support weapons) or for BARs (against an enemy using a lot of infantry), no more delayed Stuart when going for both.

Sure, this adds a lot of different ways for the US, but at the same time another faction is paying the price. And no, I don't think that Ostheer in general is underpowered (aside from the fucked teching system that feels older than Star Wars Episode 1), it is just that their playstyle is no longer supported and rewarded by the game. That's not something that can be fixed through a simple rebalancing of certain units, as that would only throw the problem further down the line.
The best example of that are Assault Grens. Those guys started as totally OP, which completely overshadowed their true problem. Then they were nerfed to uselessness, and because the unit (aside from being OP) was actually pretty bad, only the negative aspects remained. Now, you could simply buff Assault Grens, but that wouldn't magically remove their actual problems (they don't scale at all, as soon as even the lightest vehicle hits the field they are and will be your most worthless unit on the field for the remainder of the game).
Apply that on a larger scale, and you will quickly realise that buffing won't fix the actual problems Ostheer faces.

No, the US shouldn't be "easy to contain with MGs", that's exactly why thy have smoke grenades on their most important infantry unit (and on their infantry support tank). A well placed smoke grenade is all it needs to counter an MG, and that is good.

The problem is, that the mortar doesn't have the same limitations, while offering the very same capabilities. No more ammunition drain, no more strategical decision whether to go for grenades (against an enemy using many support weapons) or for BARs (against an enemy using a lot of infantry), no more delayed Stuart when going for both.

Sure, this adds a lot of different ways for the US, but at the same time another faction is paying the price. And no, I don't think that Ostheer in general is underpowered (aside from the fucked teching system that feels older than Star Wars Episode 1), it is just that their playstyle is no longer supported and rewarded by the game. That's not something that can be fixed through a simple rebalancing of certain units, as that would only throw the problem further down the line.
The best example of that are Assault Grens. Those guys started as totally OP, which completely overshadowed their true problem. Then they were nerfed to uselessness, and because the unit (aside from being OP) was actually pretty bad, only the negative aspects remained. Now, you could simply buff Assault Grens, but that wouldn't magically remove their actual problems (they don't scale at all, as soon as even the lightest vehicle hits the field they are and will be your most worthless unit on the field for the remainder of the game).
Apply that on a larger scale, and you will quickly realise that buffing won't fix the actual problems Ostheer faces.

The Mortar smoke barage doesn't work even half the time, it's good indirect fire that doesn't require teching or fuel and that could be worked around, but besides that it's just a mortar who is only for barraging because it's smoke just doesn't work.