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Remove the flamer from penals or

15 Aug 2016, 16:36 PM
#81
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 16:10 PMjesulin


Topic opened after losing versus me yesterday in automatch . You were playing in the north spot of Langreskaya as OKW, outplayed by M3A1 during all the game and I only did 1 penal squad. What was your strategy,Wuff? Going a P II without fuel while I was rushing for a T34-76?


Nope, this has bothered me since the new balance patch was released.
15 Aug 2016, 16:51 PM
#82
avatar of Brassatko

Posts: 175

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 16:29 PMZyllen


But he is somewhat correct penals and m3 are somewhat overperforming against the okw at the moment. also you did not outplay him the okw's anti lv ability suck balls compared to the ostheers 222.


Mech HQ and luchs for most players seems somehow the intuitive choice against soviet T1 but then you lack healing for quite a long time, guards are usually there by the time the luchs enters and they are superior to your volks as well as the penals. Maybe volks spam/blob (since you loose any 1v1 engagement decisively) into Flak HT is the better choice to counter this, if only that thing was a bit more durable. You'll also have the faust more quickly available to counter the scout car.

Either way, even without the flamer I think Penals just slap around OKW infantry a bit to harshly.
15 Aug 2016, 16:52 PM
#83
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 16:29 PMZyllen


But he is somewhat correct penals and m3 are somewhat overperforming against the okw at the moment. also you did not outplay him the okw's anti lv ability suck balls compared to the ostheers 222.


It would be understandable if you said that old okw, before shreck changes, were having problem with m3s and other early LVs. But now that on the top of cheap, cloakable, T0 AT gun they also have faust on mainline infantry while keeping the ability to field shreck squads, I must say your point is hard to understand.

Ostheer can only dream about such early AT capabilities while fighting desperately to gather fuel for T2.
15 Aug 2016, 16:56 PM
#84
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1



It would be understandable if you said that old okw, before shreck changes, were having problem with m3s and other early LVs. But now that on the top of cheap, cloakable, T0 AT gun they also have faust on mainline infantry while keeping the ability to field shreck squads, I must say your point is hard to understand.

Ostheer can only dream about such early AT capabilities while fighting desperately to gather fuel for T2.


Faust requires a truck down, and the RAK is very unreliable.
15 Aug 2016, 17:02 PM
#85
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 16:56 PMwuff


Faust requires a truck down, and the RAK is very unreliable.


One truck down is hardly a problem. Much earlier than getting T1 + BP1 + T2. And raketen is more than enough till you get there. Shot from cloak and a little bit of sturmpio followup and the m3 is down. The only really unreliable thing about the raketen is how long it aims, but this is not much of a problem when you fire from cloaked position so your opponent doensn't know where your cone of fire is.
15 Aug 2016, 17:05 PM
#86
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1



One truck down is hardly a problem. Much earlier than getting T1 + BP1 + T2. And raketen is more than enough till you acheive this. Shot from cloak and a little bit of sturmpio followup and the m3 is down. The only really unreliable thing about the raketen is how long it aims, but this is not much of a problem when you fire from cloaked position so your opponent doensn't know where your cone of fire is.


A cloaked RAK is very slow to move around, a well micro'd M3 will hit different flanks and not stay still.

Unless you've played a lot of 1v1 OKW this patch theory craft isn't very useful.
15 Aug 2016, 17:13 PM
#87
avatar of Brassatko

Posts: 175



One truck down is hardly a problem. Much earlier than getting T1 + BP1 + T2. And raketen is more than enough till you acheive this. Shot from cloak and a little bit of sturmpio followup and the m3 is down. The only really unreliable thing about the raketen is how long it aims, but this is not much of a problem when you fire from cloaked position so your opponent doensn't know where your cone of fire is.


I agree with the raketen doing fairly well against the scout car once you catch it out of position, but then it turns into another manpower sink for a while until the T-70 arrives while the soviet infantry is far superior. Having OKW the raketen in T0 is really only useful for countering scout cars and US light trucksand UC. Otherwise you wouldn't need it before tech. I prefer to try playing around those units early on.
15 Aug 2016, 17:14 PM
#88
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 17:05 PMwuff


A cloaked RAK is very slow to move around, a well micro'd M3 will hit different flanks and not stay still.

Unless you've played a lot of 1v1 OKW this patch theory craft isn't very useful.


Well, I might have not played okw 1v1s this patch, as I play much less now than before but I remember playing 1v1s with early LVs both as and against okw before they got all the early game buffs like mg, faust, raketen cone angle increase and so on. It was hard with raketens only back then but perfectly doable. Some players even decided their commander just to get a snare... Now with all the goodies there shouldn't be a single reason to complain.
15 Aug 2016, 17:15 PM
#89
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1



Well, I might have not played okw 1v1s this patch, as I play much less now than before but I remember playing 1v1s with early LVs both as and against okw before they got all the early game buffs like mg, faust, raketen cone angle increase and so on. It was hard with raketens only back then but perfectly doable. Some players even decided their commander just to get a snare... Now with all the goodies there shouldn't be a single reason to complain.


I think the OKW win rate speaks for itself, that the faction is not in the best state.

However this thread was about penals, not the M3.
15 Aug 2016, 17:24 PM
#90
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770



It would be understandable if you said that old okw, before shreck changes, were having problem with m3s and other early LVs. But now that on the top of cheap, cloakable, T0 AT gun they also have faust on mainline infantry while keeping the ability to field shreck squads, I must say your point is hard to understand.

Ostheer can only dream about such early AT capabilities while fighting desperately to gather fuel for T2.


Early puchpen is NOT cheap early it translates into 1 less squad in the field.
for faust you need the truck which cost 300 mp. which once again translates into 1 single squad. less

on top of that penals + m3 have complete superiority over you against volks if the situation is equal.

You dont understand the argument because you obviously suck at math.
15 Aug 2016, 17:24 PM
#91
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 17:15 PMwuff


I think the OKW win rate speaks for itself, that the faction is not in the best state.

However this thread was about penals, not the M3.


The faction is in such position becouse it lacks classic mid game AT. At some point it simply is not enough to spam raketens and this is much before panther comes on to the field. Shreck blobs were used to fill that gap before, now people cant use them and didn't learn yet to start to use forgotten okw units that were redeemed useless by shrecks before such as puma, JP4 and something all okw players seem to forget about - the mine.

But yeah, this, the weakness of okw faction, has nothing to do with penals. Just as it has nothing to do with m3s.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 17:24 PMZyllen


Early puchpen is NOT cheap early it translates into 1 less squad in the field.
for faust you need the truck which cost 300 mp. which once again translates into 1 single squad. less

on top of that penals + m3 have complete superiority over you against volks if the situation is equal.

You dont understand the argument because you obviously suck at math.


An m3 in flames is also one squad less. And it doesn't stay on the field, it translates into okw player fuel instead. The tech is mp costly but it is not as costly as for example the tech ostheer needs to get their LV counters. You should also remember that soviets need tech just to build that first m3 or penal... Isn't it a one squad less?

Btw Belive me or not but my math is pretty damn good ;)
15 Aug 2016, 17:25 PM
#92
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 17:15 PMwuff

I think the OKW win rate speaks for itself, that the faction is not in the best state.

And what's about it? It's 0.567 in 1*1 with average 0.576.
http://coh2chart.com/
15 Aug 2016, 17:29 PM
#93
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1



The faction is in such position becouse it lacks classic mid game AT. At some point it simply is not enough to spam raketens and this is much before panther comes on to the field. Shreck blobs were used to fill that gap before, now people cant use them and didn't learn yet to start to use forgotten okw units that were redeemed useless by shrecks before such as puma, JP4 and something all okw players seem to forget about - the mine.

But yeah, this, the weakness of okw faction, has nothing to do with penals. Just as it has nothing to do with m3s.


Don't agree.

6 man flamer squad, not a good idea.
15 Aug 2016, 17:30 PM
#94
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 17:25 PMnewvan

And what's about it? It's 0.567 in 1*1 with average 0.576.
http://coh2chart.com/


It is lower than all allied factions.
15 Aug 2016, 17:32 PM
#95
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440

all this because paul kicked your ass last night
15 Aug 2016, 17:33 PM
#96
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

all this because paul kicked your ass last night


This has nothing to do with Paula.
15 Aug 2016, 17:34 PM
#97
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 17:30 PMwuff


It is lower than all allied factions.

Yes, 0.02-0.03 is definitely serious superiority and not even close to the statistical error.
15 Aug 2016, 17:36 PM
#98
avatar of Brassatko

Posts: 175

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 17:33 PMwuff


This has nothing to do with Paula.


think a lot of players choose OKW in tournaments these days :-) ? Maybe that's an indicator? At least then the L2p argument will drop instead of proper reasoning.
nee
15 Aug 2016, 17:39 PM
#99
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

How about PTRS for Penals? Two of them per upgrade so they can't pickup stuff? Gives them infantry AI without going doctrinal, and Guards would be more versatile because of grenade and DP-28s. That way you can tag team with Conscripts' snare and Penals' light AT damage, until T2 or vehicles arrive.
15 Aug 2016, 17:40 PM
#100
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2016, 17:33 PMwuff


This has nothing to do with Paula.


i am sorry, i should not have said that. Still i dont think penals are OP dude
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