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russian armor

T70 Nerf

10 Aug 2016, 19:09 PM
#1
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

It's time to stop Relic!




Nerf this t70 and other light vehicles that promote cheap play by using an all-around infantry nukers - especially when they far outclass their medium counter parts for cost in terms of handling infantry.

Make CoH2 great again - nerf light vechs.

I could wrtie a long and pointed post about why T70 and similar light vehcs are OP, but I honestly think it's obvious.

EDIT: Light Vehicles (biggest offenders) = T70, Stuart, AEC, 222, Luchs; in that order.
10 Aug 2016, 19:14 PM
#2
avatar of Don'tKnow

Posts: 225 | Subs: 1

Agree but why do you want to nerf all light vehicles ?
10 Aug 2016, 19:15 PM
#3
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 874 | Subs: 6

I would love to see the T-70 get a very big damage nerf and a manpower increase in exchange for having 400 health in order to make it more consistent.
10 Aug 2016, 19:40 PM
#6
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

Agree but why do you want to nerf all light vehicles ?


While the T70 is the biggest offender, all early game generalist light vechs (stuart, T70, AEC, and 222/P2 to a lesser extent) promote a style of play that I feel is antithetical to CoH2.

CoH2 is about squad tactics and getting an edge with positioning and micro and abilities in the early game and then transitions to powerful gun lines of combined arms late game.

The light vehicles on the other hand are extremely good at dominating the early-mid game. While there are "counters" to this (which is why they aren't completely bonkers OP), such as mines or AT grenades, a smart player knows who to use and abuse these vechs to keep them out of harms way until they can get the most damage in (usually a kill).

So whereas constant micro is needed to keep your squads performing well and gaining advantages, little to no effort is needed to get a lot of mileage out of light vechs. This incentivizes players to get an effective (if expensive) vech out and A-move is wherever you need. Forgot about that flank? Send your AEC! Big push coming? T70 is your man(tank) to plink away at advancing squads!

Of course, this often leads into headlong charges with these guys as soon as an opportunity appears, blowing right past an AT gun (especially easy vs Raks with their abysmal target acquisition) and scoring squad wipes without really even trying since these light tanks have so much lethality to them.

Basically, light vechs are now no-brainer units - good in any situation. Because light vechs are so good, they promote dumbed down and frustrating play requiring an inordinate amount of effort of the opponent to counter it effectively whereas the vech can punish you quite severely ~8 min into the game with a much smaller amount of effort.
10 Aug 2016, 20:11 PM
#7
avatar of Budwise
Admin Red  Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2074 | Subs: 2

Well only the T70 is such a jack of all trades and quite good at all of them. Others like the Puma or Luchs are single use vehicles. Only the AEC is close to the T70 but its still not as good AI but it comes with free "LOL smoke". And no Axis counterpart is near as good as either.
10 Aug 2016, 20:13 PM
#8
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

LVs should do what you describe they do: the whole point of them is to get a quick response force that is enough to hold against typical early-mid game flank, but not enough against combined force or real tank.

The real problem is that tech coming after the LV tend to be so expensive it is always better to delay tech and go LV. It should be strategic choice, but for that we need further teching to be viable. Becouse the LV part of game is so long they win games, not only engagements, but this is a matter of time, not their strenght. Making them weak will couse that part of game to be not only lenghtening but also boring.

Remember when relic delayed tech of all factions to "promote LV play"? Thats when they screw that up. And they have done that without a single buff to said vehicles.
10 Aug 2016, 20:25 PM
#9
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

I guess the M20 is fine.
10 Aug 2016, 20:28 PM
#10
avatar of IamCat

Posts: 84

Soviet has a good unit?
Golly geee!!! Better nurf that quick relic! :*(:*(:*(:*(
Whenever soviets have something good, people here get mad asap.


This idea of increasing armor, nerf dps is not good, why should an anti-infantry tank get a big damage nerf?
I don't get it? You want to make every light tank in this game the same?
T-70 trades armor, for inf damage with short scatter, and costs more fuel than a Panzer II.

T-70 current problem is the accuracy while on move, that lets you kill retreating units with big success rate and repairing on the move ability.

If anything needs to be nerfed, and you nerf T-70's damage, then why not nerf the HT flamer ? That can kill all your team weapons even when you react (I'm not even talking about MG in garrisons).

It takes only one snare and one AT shot to kill a T-70, consider that killing a T70 is very easy.


If your point is that Light tanks represent a gameplay flaw, then it might just be right but this is another subject.


jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2016, 20:11 PMBudwise
Well only the T70 is such a jack of all trades and quite good at all of them. Others like the Puma or Luchs are single use vehicles. Only the AEC is close to the T70 but its still not as good AI but it comes with free "LOL smoke". And no Axis counterpart is near as good as either.



Not really.
T-70 doesn't let you penetrate any other armor but light tanks (unlike the axis light vehicles).
Also T-70 destroying luchs/222 is actually a hard counter, not that easy at all, and axis lights can also kill a T-70 if they engage it.
The match-up is on T-70's advantage, but it doesn't mean they can't kill it.

10 Aug 2016, 20:50 PM
#12
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

The face fact that you said "flamer HT" means 1 of 2 things:
1.) You play only team games
2.) You are a complete noob at 1v1.

I haven't seen a Flamer HT built in 1v1 in at least a year...

If I could take out a T70 with 1 snare + at gun, I'd win every game because I always have such "options."

Only problem is t70 backs up and kills me in 3 seconds while it stays out of Pfaust range.

10 Aug 2016, 20:52 PM
#13
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

The face that you said "flamer HT" means 1 of 2 things:
1.) You play only team games
2.) You are a complete noob at 1v1.

I haven't seen a Flamer HT built in 1v1 in at least a year...

If I could take out a T70 with 1 snare + at gun, I'd win every game because I always have such "options."

Only problem is t70 backs up and kills me in 3 seconds while it stays out of Pfaust range.


Dane makes them:foreveralone:
10 Aug 2016, 20:56 PM
#14
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2306 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2016, 20:28 PMIamCat

It takes only one snare and one AT shot to kill a T-70, consider that killing a T70 is very easy.

No, it takes 2 AT-gun shots, or 2 AT-gun shots and a faust if it pops critical repair. You will never one faust + one pak shot a t-70.
10 Aug 2016, 21:07 PM
#15
avatar of Don'tKnow

Posts: 225 | Subs: 1

1)Nerf T70, Luchs and AEC slightly.
2)Reward teching more
10 Aug 2016, 21:19 PM
#16
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

T-70 is way too good at wiping retreating squads.

There has been a gradual light vehicle power creep for a while now, and it has gone too far. Not only have most of them become extremely good at killing infantry but too many light vehicles have too much health (surviving 2 AT gun shots). Their health pool compounds the issue of lethality because countering them with AT guns quickly becomes impractical. You have to hope your opponent makes a mistake (hits a mine, lets you get into snare range) or get a light vehicle of your own - the latter almost always being the superior option.

Even when mediums hit the field, the health pool of light vehicles can cause problems for mediums to kill them unless they're over-extended.

Furthermore the USF ones can self-repair, Luchs has alien tech instant invis (seriously why can you invis in combat?), the 222 has map-hack level vision with vet, blah blah...

TLDR - I agree with Vindi.
10 Aug 2016, 21:43 PM
#17
avatar of RealName

Posts: 276

Make teching to late tiers cheaper! It might also solve the problem of call in spam by making stock late game vehicles more attractive to get, AND shorten the window of opportunity LVs have.
10 Aug 2016, 21:44 PM
#18
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

Thing is, for the light vehicles that cost over 60+ fuel, they generally need to be able to survive 2 ATG shots. Anyone remember how bad the Stuart was prior to its health buff? Even if the Captain tier during that era wasn't what one would call 'good' a 320 light tank in most cases was generally bad, especially if it did not have firepower and the fact ATG power grows when more guns arrive on the field where you can get close to wiping with minimal reaction.

There are only two light tank(ish) vehicles non-doctrinally that are actually good at killing and chasing down infantry, the Luchs, which has massive penalties while moving and more vs retreating units due to retreat bonuses and the T-70 due to how scatter works. Stuarts need lucky shots versus clumped troops or to be point-blank while the AEC is pretty much with the Stuart, though it has a better MG.

Here's a thing, though, what would you guys suggest to nerfing the lights, but also making them still viable units? Furthermore where do we draw the line of when they should wipe and not wipe retreating units? What do we consider too fast or too good?

miragefla's Suggestion

T-70: Only allow it to splash 1-2 models so it's still very good vs infantry, but it has much less of a chance of hurting the entire squad on retreat/clumped where it can occasionally nuke a whole squad. Can be done due to Relic's recent mine changes which allows AOE to have a limit vs models. If that's not enough, increase the scatter distance of the T-70 which is set to 1.7 and then maybe a slight manpower increase.

Stuart: Stuart has the issue with the USF being able to put vehicles back into action very quickly, but that's a faction trait, but fixing superglue would be a start. Critical Repair should require at least 4-5 seconds to work and cost more munitions.

As for the Stuart itself, I would probably say its timing is off the most and maybe its lucky AOE wipes on super clumped units. Out of all the lights, it arrives probably the soonest. How we fix it though is another issue. I don't want to raise Captain cost too much, so probably the tank's cost. Given lights like the Luchs and AEC are at 280+ and above, it could probably do with a manpower increase.

Luchs: Goes for all things, but the camouflage for any unit needs a slight delay before activation. Also, like most OKW units, rework or tone down the veterancy at max. The tank, if it gets to vet 5 will near instant pin units in 1-2 shots.

222: Could be a tad pricer in terms of fuel at a 25-35 price tag. Fix its MG as well(nerf if too strong) and its map-hacking abilities with spotting scopes. Move that bonus from a 100% increase to 50% minimum.

----

Note, do not make tech any cheaper for mid-game tanks. Fix the call-in issue instead. We can't have tanks arriving too soon or then it just means tanks rushes like we had prior to the March Deployment.
10 Aug 2016, 21:46 PM
#19
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1593

10 Aug 2016, 21:48 PM
#20
avatar of Theodosios
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 1548 | Subs: 7

Even if you have gathered enough AT forces to wreck light vehicles effectively you will be overrun by BAR'd up Riflemen/Guards/Bren'd up ISs etc. soon since investing much in AT has a lack of AI as consequence. All your AT seems superfluous if you managed to bring down the light vehicle then having to face hordes of Allied infantry. Indirect fire and off map abilities will be used either to disrupt your AT without plenty of effort strengthening Allied advantage even more.

In case you cannot handle light vehicles your Allied counterpart will be able to bring out a ton of medium tanks - provided he was smart enough to seize the momentum to capture and control both fuel points - thus creating an almost insuperable snowball.

The only matchup in which Axis could follow such an approach would be Ostheer vs UKF. 222s en masse can be countered hardly because UKF has no AT grenades, AEC will be eaten easily if at least 2 222s rush it and AT guns must be positioned quite well to anticipate the incoming push assuming you have fielded AT guns at all at this point of the game. On top of that 222s can be built as well as replaced quickly and cheaply.

In some maps this type of game flow will not take place due to their camp and defensive gameplay favouring design like Langreskaya. Most maps in 1v1 map pool favour the described situation though.

Conclusion: Agreed with VindicareX.
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