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Solutions to LMG blobs.

24 Apr 2016, 14:10 PM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

LMG blob are problematic and in most cases the weapon upgrade is no brainier.

1) A moving LMG blobs
This problem can be fixed by making an LMG squad less effective when moving constantly. This can be achieved by either making the LMG weapon have a long set up time or by increasing its DPS the longer the unit stay immobile.

2) Buying weapon for all squads.
This problem can be fixed by reducing the utility of units that have bought weapon upgrades. Thing like AT snare, grenades, smoke grenades, rifle grenades, minesweeper, healing, off map artillery and others can be mutually exclusive with some weapon upgrades.
24 Apr 2016, 16:37 PM
#2
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

For to make that "LMG blob" you have to spend really a lot of ammo... I guess such investment shouldn't be gone in nothing, just because people don't know how to use rocket artillery, howitzers and off-map strikes.

You know, 1 rightly dropped Dive bomb in a middle of rifleLMGblob and your enemy will leave with 80% chanses! Cos rifleblobs are only real power of USF, like latepowerfull tanks of Axis. Tommyblobs can be bigger disaster, cos they are less fragile... but recipe is same - bombard them into stone age, son.

I guess it would be more fair not to nerf LMGblobs and blobs at all, but buff anti-blob tools - all kinds of artillery and some off-maps. It will be work like "OK, blobs are easy power, but for using that power you always can be punished tough".

Panzerwerfer should be really more effective, than it is now. Wuhrframmen should aslo be changed for to be more effective not against weapon teams, but allie's blobs.

And Allies already got Calliopes, Matressess and other hell-machines. Guess they won't have any problems with Axis blobs for long time now.
24 Apr 2016, 16:48 PM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

For to make that "LMG blob" you have to spend really a lot of ammo...

1) not all faction/commander have the same access to rocket artillery
2) not all faction/commander have the same access to AI off maps

LMG and other weapons blob turn the game into RNG roll, and thus make the game worse. Removing utility from upgraded unit will make weapon upgrades a trade off, one lose something to gain something else so it improves game design.
24 Apr 2016, 16:50 PM
#4
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Apr 2016, 14:10 PMVipper
1) A moving LMG blobs
This problem can be fixed by making an LMG squad less effective when moving constantly. This can be achieved by either making the LMG weapon have a long set up time or by increasing its DPS the longer the unit stay immobile.


LMGs are currently god-mode at max range, and currently there is no trade-off for that (apart from the LMG cost). Thus, limiting mobility might be the way to go.

If we go to extremes with this implementation, one issue I can see coming is that mortar spam will be too effective against LMG-reliant factions (UKF, OST).

Other ways to achieve something similar are:
- Increasing the aim time of LMGs (thus, darting in-out-of corners will be the way to approach the enemy).
- Introducing some kind of out-of-cover penalty to accuracy for all LMG-totting squads that only affects LMGs (I'm not sure if this is doable)

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Apr 2016, 14:10 PMVipper
2) Buying weapon for all squads.
This problem can be fixed by reducing the utility of units that have bought weapon upgrades. Thing like AT snare, grenades, smoke grenades, rifle grenades, minesweeper, healing, off map artillery and others can be mutually exclusive with some weapon upgrades.


I'm not sure how well this will work in practice. On one hand we have a trade-off. On the other hand, an LMG-blobber will start blobbing even harder. (now with 2 LMG grens and one non-LMG gren for fausts). Now, suddenly, in order to counter that blob you also have to make a blob of your own.

This is not dissimilar to Volks-blobs; the informed people will always mix a Sturmpioneer in for minesweeping. Since mines/demo-packs are OP and Sturmpioneers are expensive, the Volks-blobber will have no incentive to split their forces (because they will be punished otherwise).

I guess it would be more fair not to nerf LMGblobs and blobs at all, but buff anti-blob tools - all kinds of artillery and some off-maps.

Panzerwerfer should be really more effective, than it is now. Wuhrframmen should aslo be changed for to be more effective not against weapon teams, but allie's blobs.

And Allies already got Calliopes, Matressess and other hell-machines. Guess they won't have any problems with Axis blobs for long time now.


One of the issues with overbuffing artillery (e.g., to CoH1 levels) is that it leads to extremely campy playstyles. Why ever put the effort to create an offensive? Just nuke the enemy from orbit from behind your own line. Your artillery will do the job for you, so that you never have to move!

(Also some of the factions only have DLC-dependent artillery -- which is stronger than other factions' but still DLC).
24 Apr 2016, 16:55 PM
#5
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Apr 2016, 16:48 PMVipper

1) not all faction/commander have the same access to rocket artillery
2) not all faction/commander have the same access to AI off maps



Actually all factions have either good anti-blob offmaps or rocket artillery. Sometimes together.

Btw, that LMG blob problem is mostly about allies, I suppouse. Rlfleblobs, Tommyblobs (not sure, that there is someone so perverted, that he spam Grens or Obers...) - I can agree, they are annyoing, but... both Axis factions are equiped with rocket artillery platforms and some powerfull off-maps, like same Dive bomb, Stuka bombrun or things like this. Just as I said - improve anti-blob power of Pwerfer, by increasing AoE of it's rockets, something should be done with Wuhrframmen, don't really know what for to make it effective against those masses.

Just improve countermeasures, don't fix blobs. If Relic will totally remove blobs, than rocket artillery, part of howitzers and off-maps instantly will become useless, cos it's their job - deal with mass of infantry.



One of the issues with overbuffing artillery (e.g., to CoH1 levels) is that it leads to extremely campy playstyles. Why ever put the effort to create an offensive? Just nuke the enemy from orbit from behind your own line. Your artillery will do the job for you, so that you never have to move!

(Also some of the factions only have DLC-dependent artillery -- which is stronger than other factions' but still DLC).


Campy playstyle is playstyle anyawy, it should exist in CoH 2, we can't allow to exist only "offencive" playstyles, cos otherwise - game will become too boring very soon, let people choose between rush or camping. Btw, for to have nice offencive playstyle, you will need good arty anyway, for to breakthrough enemy defenses. And for playing on arty you will need assault grops, just for to keep map under control.

It's more difficult than "make arty more powerfull - everyone will camp". It's really more complicated...





24 Apr 2016, 18:31 PM
#6
avatar of GenObi

Posts: 556

Tanks and AOE weapons
24 Apr 2016, 19:06 PM
#7
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



LMGs are currently god-mode at max range, and currently there is no trade-off for that (apart from the LMG cost). Thus, limiting mobility might be the way to go.


There might be a DPS trade-off when they're literally next to them, sometimes :luvCarrot:
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