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Allied 1v1 Dominace

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4 Jan 2016, 23:01 PM
#101
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

Okay after some thinking here goes my response to Vindicare's original post... hopefully I can make it make sense in text because some of the concepts are abstract... I understand them in my brain but that doesn't mean that they will translate well...

I think the underlying point that Vindi is making is that each faction should be roughly equally strong at each distinct phase of the game (early, mid, late). This means that each faction should have about the same chance to retain and maintain map control during each stage of the game, thus removing the notion of "live for 45 mins then autowin cuz of vet 5." I think this is a good idea, especially when you look at other popular games like SC 2 and AoE 2.

I worry that Relic is tunnel-visioned on their "faction strength infographic thing." These sorts of approaches to balance and design are, in my opinion, bad choices and I'll do my best to outline why below. (Edit to fix this part to not sound like such a dick, sorry about that Relic. Also I have been lead to believe that this (silly) assumption of mine is wrong, I hope that is the case :) )

First let us take a look at what are in my opinion currently the most balanced match-ups in 1v1:

Ost vs Sov and OKW vs USF

In each of these matchups the starting strength of the factions is close to equal. OKW might have a slight advantage over USF because of the Kubel (which is EXTREMELY overperforming this patch) but with that out of the equation both match ups come down to who is able to micro/position their infantry better (well that and the map choice... yay Relic maps). The point being, neither faction is going to take control of the entire map simply because of a match up related imbalance.

Moving onto the later stages of the game each faction is equipped to counter/react to tech choices that their opponent makes, in an appropriate time frame.

Sov rushes T70? Ost can have tellers, schrecks and/or PAK40 as well as access to fausts.
Ost makes a 222? Sov can have mines, AT nades, guards, ZiS.
USF rushes M20? OKW can have mines, schrecks, Rak, 251 Flak
OKW rushes Luchs? USF can have Captain, AT gun (kind of boned if they go Lt though which is why AT gun should be T0 but that is for another topic).

The point I am making is that in each case, in these match ups, the players are able to react and adapt to the current situation. Sure the Luchs is still strong against USF but USF can prepare for that unit in a proper time frame so they're not just auto thrown off the map.

Now let us take a look at the more imbalanced match ups. It is also important to note in these cases that your economy in CoH 2 is tied directly to map control. RTS games are won by exploitation of advantage(s). Generally advantages can be used to snow-ball into greater advantages, and it is unwise to try and gain ground in an area in which you are already behind... this only leads you to staying behind (again, a topic for another thread or maybe a video). This is the point that I am making in this little paragraph: In other RTS aggressive players generally have to sacrifice some of their economy in order to place aggressive pressure on their enemy. In CoH 2 this opportunity cost does not exist. The more map you control, the more resources you gain. The defensive player does not gain much by being on the back foot. In SC 2 for example if I sacrifice my economy to place pressure on you I am gaining map control at the loss of my economy. If I do not do enough damage to you, you will out-pace me in tech, leading to you taking back the map and me having to find an advantage elsewhere. Again, this dynamic does not exist in CoH 2.

So, those imbalanced match ups.

Ost vs USF:

Rifles outclass Grens... really at all stages of the game these days, but the early game tends to be the most important. It is extremely hard for Ost to have a solid start against USF in 1v1. Rifles being stronger than Grens gives USF a map control advantage early on. This can be somewhat mitigated by really good MG42 play, but even that is placing emphasis on holding an area rather than capturing territory. Good building, green cover use and flanks are negate a single MG42 on most maps anyways. I think it is safe to assume that the USF player is going to have a map control advantage over the Ost player in the early game, assuming equal skill.

This then snowballs into a resource advantage for the USF player which then further translates into a tech advantage. Now the aggressive player, which in other RTS games would be sacrificing something in order to maintain aggression is actually rewarded in every aspect. The M20 can hit the field before the Ost player can field a PaK and along with it comes a "free" Lt squad (equipped with a thompson and BAR for extra "free" firepower). At this point the Ost player is going to struggle to keep up. Maybe a lucky teller will stop the M20 against a lesser player, but that is not reliable. The M20 can drive up to Grens, eat a faust and self repair. It can cap, it has a bazooka, it is effectively immune to small arms fire, it can plant mines and it has smoke (making it ridiculously difficult to kill). Oh yeah and it costs 20 fuel (While the UKF UC costs 15 fuel... Relic pls).

The Ost player is going to struggle to hold onto his own fuel/cutoff. The mobility of the M20 means the USF player is utterly dominant logistically. It is a nightmare. The 222 is okay-ish at keeping the M20 at bay, but the bazooka crew/smoke/threat of mines means the 222 cannot chase. You're really stuck having to try and turtle on a small portion of the map while your important sectors are constantly harassed.

In the end this leads to a major economic and tech advantage for the USF player. A fast Sherman can easily seal the deal. Even if it doesn't USF has access to CalliOPs, dual M1919s or BARs, Pershing, etc. Their late game is super strong now.

The same can be seen in the UKF vs OKW match up. UKF just has nothing to deal with an early Luchs. The AEC is absolutely garbage. Probably the worst unit/cost in the game (or maybe that is the UC, or perhaps the Bofors). OKW seize early game with proper Sturm/Kubel micro into a Luchs that is free to run amok without the threat of a reliable snare and then some sort of medium tank to end it.

Basically... what I am trying to say... and what I think Vindi was getting at (correct me if I am wrong).

Balancing/designing factions specifically to be strong at certain points of the game, rather than factions being designed to be equally strong (or roughly so) at all stages is, in my opinion a poor choice. At top level play in an RTS like COH 2 the faction that has a significant early game advantage over another faction has such a potential to snowball that it makes mounting a comeback overly difficult. It is also frustrating as a player to have to concede so much early map control just because my opponent's faction arbitrarily has an early game advantage over me. The better player should be rewarded for making good decisions, proper choices and out playing his opponent - not punished because "lol OKW is an early game faction and Brits aren't, have fun dealing with my 5 min Luchs bro, no snare? too bad lol I'm at your cutoff watcha gonna do?"

Top players want to win because they have outplayed their opponent in some fashion. Not because they were able to cram Rifles and an M20 down their Ost opponent's cutoff for 12 minutes until the Sherman comes to seal the deal.
4 Jan 2016, 23:01 PM
#102
avatar of Basti

Posts: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2016, 22:52 PMVuther

If the highest levels of play perceives a balance issue, it's probably imbalanced.

If only the lower levels of play perceive a balance issue, it's probably a gameplay design problem.


Well I actually agree with CieZ. Balance must come from top down.

Let me state it in other words: at low or medium level balance is actually not that important. you usually lose because you made one or several mistakes - that is regardless of fraction or balance.

All I'm saying is: make the game more enjoyable/less frustrating. When I come home from work I don't want to get overrun by shrek blobs three times in a row ;-)
4 Jan 2016, 23:05 PM
#103
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

^wisdom.
4 Jan 2016, 23:18 PM
#104
avatar of Kamzil118

Posts: 455

^wisdom.
At its finest.
4 Jan 2016, 23:49 PM
#105
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2016, 23:01 PMBasti


Well I actually agree with CieZ. Balance must come from top down.

Let me state it in other words: at low or medium level balance is actually not that important. you usually lose because you made one or several mistakes - that is regardless of fraction or balance.

All I'm saying is: make the game more enjoyable/less frustrating. When I come home from work I don't want to get overrun by shrek blobs three times in a row ;-)

But that's I'm saying. Balance comes from the top levels, but perceived issues from the lower levels can still indicate something important, if different - there's a gameplay design problem.
5 Jan 2016, 00:26 AM
#106
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2016, 23:49 PMVuther

But that's I'm saying. Balance comes from the top levels, but perceived issues from the lower levels can still indicate something important, if different - there's a gameplay design problem.


That's why, I think, OKW got their fuel costs as well as popcap adjusted the week after their overhaul. The popcap issue probably affected all levels of play including good players, while the fuel costs possibly hit lower skilled and team-based games the most. In the end both were addressed. wisely methinks.

Yes, balance should come from the top down. But the game should be fun and as balanced as possible for everyone. Hence touching the early game of any faction needs to be done with kid gloves even if it affects pro players the most.
5 Jan 2016, 00:43 AM
#107
avatar of GenObi

Posts: 556

"Top to bottom"

Wise words, I think we can conclude this thread, very insightful :).
5 Jan 2016, 00:48 AM
#108
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1165 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2016, 00:43 AMGenObi
"Top to bottom"

Wise words, I think we can conclude this thread, very insightful :).


I mentally closed this thread on page one.

thread closed/

Oh, and you spelled dominance wrong.
5 Jan 2016, 01:09 AM
#109
avatar of siuking666

Posts: 707

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2016, 23:01 PMCieZ

The point I am making is that in each case, in these match ups, the players are able to react and adapt to the current situation. Sure the Luchs is still strong against USF but USF can prepare for that unit in a proper time frame so they're not just auto thrown off the map.


Good post. Hope more of those self-righteous knows-all forum warriors read it and shut up about balance.
That was what vCoH US vs Wehrmacht matchup was like and was ultimately balanced.

US starts off with Rifles against Wehr T1 Volks MG Snipers.

Pick BAR/nades for upgrade? You need to push for fuel or Wehr gets T3 Puma to counter you while you're waiting for fuel for T3/T4.
Go T3 M8 Greyhound for light vehicles? Wehr has T2 Pak38 and Volks faust to keep it at bay.

Wehr going heavy T2 Vet Infantry? Back tech Snipers and BARs and T4 Tank depot, wait for 105 on map.
Wehr going heavy T3 Puma Spam? Tech Sticky/Rangers/Airborne + T4 M10
Wehr going T3 StuG Spam? Airborne + AT Guns.
Wehr rushing T4? Armor Company Allied War Machine.

Right now the CoH2 1v1 game pace is just restricting.
5 Jan 2016, 01:38 AM
#110
avatar of Antilles950
Donator 22

Posts: 168

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2016, 23:01 PMCieZ
Okay after some thinking here goes my response to Vindicare's original post... hopefully I can make it make sense in text because some of the concepts are abstract... I understand them in my brain but that doesn't mean that they will translate well...

I think the underlying point that Vindi is making is that each faction should be roughly equally strong at each distinct phase of the game (early, mid, late). This means that each faction should have about the same chance to retain and maintain map control during each stage of the game, thus removing the notion of "live for 45 mins then autowin cuz of vet 5." I think this is a good idea, especially when you look at other popular games like SC 2 and AoE 2.

I worry that Relic is tunnel-visioned on their "faction strength infographic thing." These sorts of approaches to balance and design are, in my opinion, bad choices and I'll do my best to outline why below. (Edit to fix this part to not sound like such a dick, sorry about that Relic. Also I have been lead to believe that this (silly) assumption of mine is wrong, I hope that is the case :) )

First let us take a look at what are in my opinion currently the most balanced match-ups in 1v1:

Ost vs Sov and OKW vs USF

In each of these matchups the starting strength of the factions is close to equal. OKW might have a slight advantage over USF because of the Kubel (which is EXTREMELY overperforming this patch) but with that out of the equation both match ups come down to who is able to micro/position their infantry better (well that and the map choice... yay Relic maps). The point being, neither faction is going to take control of the entire map simply because of a match up related imbalance.

Moving onto the later stages of the game each faction is equipped to counter/react to tech choices that their opponent makes, in an appropriate time frame.

Sov rushes T70? Ost can have tellers, schrecks and/or PAK40 as well as access to fausts.
Ost makes a 222? Sov can have mines, AT nades, guards, ZiS.
USF rushes M20? OKW can have mines, schrecks, Rak, 251 Flak
OKW rushes Luchs? USF can have Captain, AT gun (kind of boned if they go Lt though which is why AT gun should be T0 but that is for another topic).

The point I am making is that in each case, in these match ups, the players are able to react and adapt to the current situation. Sure the Luchs is still strong against USF but USF can prepare for that unit in a proper time frame so they're not just auto thrown off the map.

Now let us take a look at the more imbalanced match ups. It is also important to note in these cases that your economy in CoH 2 is tied directly to map control. RTS games are won by exploitation of advantage(s). Generally advantages can be used to snow-ball into greater advantages, and it is unwise to try and gain ground in an area in which you are already behind... this only leads you to staying behind (again, a topic for another thread or maybe a video). This is the point that I am making in this little paragraph: In other RTS aggressive players generally have to sacrifice some of their economy in order to place aggressive pressure on their enemy. In CoH 2 this opportunity cost does not exist. The more map you control, the more resources you gain. The defensive player does not gain much by being on the back foot. In SC 2 for example if I sacrifice my economy to place pressure on you I am gaining map control at the loss of my economy. If I do not do enough damage to you, you will out-pace me in tech, leading to you taking back the map and me having to find an advantage elsewhere. Again, this dynamic does not exist in CoH 2.

So, those imbalanced match ups.

Ost vs USF:

Rifles outclass Grens... really at all stages of the game these days, but the early game tends to be the most important. It is extremely hard for Ost to have a solid start against USF in 1v1. Rifles being stronger than Grens gives USF a map control advantage early on. This can be somewhat mitigated by really good MG42 play, but even that is placing emphasis on holding an area rather than capturing territory. Good building, green cover use and flanks are negate a single MG42 on most maps anyways. I think it is safe to assume that the USF player is going to have a map control advantage over the Ost player in the early game, assuming equal skill.

This then snowballs into a resource advantage for the USF player which then further translates into a tech advantage. Now the aggressive player, which in other RTS games would be sacrificing something in order to maintain aggression is actually rewarded in every aspect. The M20 can hit the field before the Ost player can field a PaK and along with it comes a "free" Lt squad (equipped with a thompson and BAR for extra "free" firepower). At this point the Ost player is going to struggle to keep up. Maybe a lucky teller will stop the M20 against a lesser player, but that is not reliable. The M20 can drive up to Grens, eat a faust and self repair. It can cap, it has a bazooka, it is effectively immune to small arms fire, it can plant mines and it has smoke (making it ridiculously difficult to kill). Oh yeah and it costs 20 fuel (While the UKF UC costs 15 fuel... Relic pls).

The Ost player is going to struggle to hold onto his own fuel/cutoff. The mobility of the M20 means the USF player is utterly dominant logistically. It is a nightmare. The 222 is okay-ish at keeping the M20 at bay, but the bazooka crew/smoke/threat of mines means the 222 cannot chase. You're really stuck having to try and turtle on a small portion of the map while your important sectors are constantly harassed.

In the end this leads to a major economic and tech advantage for the USF player. A fast Sherman can easily seal the deal. Even if it doesn't USF has access to CalliOPs, dual M1919s or BARs, Pershing, etc. Their late game is super strong now.

The same can be seen in the UKF vs OKW match up. UKF just has nothing to deal with an early Luchs. The AEC is absolutely garbage. Probably the worst unit/cost in the game (or maybe that is the UC, or perhaps the Bofors). OKW seize early game with proper Sturm/Kubel micro into a Luchs that is free to run amok without the threat of a reliable snare and then some sort of medium tank to end it.

Basically... what I am trying to say... and what I think Vindi was getting at (correct me if I am wrong).

Balancing/designing factions specifically to be strong at certain points of the game, rather than factions being designed to be equally strong (or roughly so) at all stages is, in my opinion a poor choice. At top level play in an RTS like COH 2 the faction that has a significant early game advantage over another faction has such a potential to snowball that it makes mounting a comeback overly difficult. It is also frustrating as a player to have to concede so much early map control just because my opponent's faction arbitrarily has an early game advantage over me. The better player should be rewarded for making good decisions, proper choices and out playing his opponent - not punished because "lol OKW is an early game faction and Brits aren't, have fun dealing with my 5 min Luchs bro, no snare? too bad lol I'm at your cutoff watcha gonna do?"

Top players want to win because they have outplayed their opponent in some fashion. Not because they were able to cram Rifles and an M20 down their Ost opponent's cutoff for 12 minutes until the Sherman comes to seal the deal.


Honestly, at this point I'm not sure what can be done to fix this. Maybe Rifleman initial longrange DPS should be decreased, with the ability to earn it back with vet? The officer system, I have no idea how to wrestle with UKF is a mess, I have no idea what to do with that.

I think 2 big things that would help fix this is improved Wehr elite infantry. Coh1 Volks -> Grens was great and allowed Ost to scale with US, but that doesn't happen in Coh2; Pgrens are so inefficient. Grenade range should also decrease with suppression. IDK these are all symptoms of the bigger problems though.

Honestly, I think tournaments would be better if they forced intended matchups, so that Ost always faced Sov and USF always faced OKW. It could be like, Player 1 chooses matchup, Player 2 chooses faction, and then Player 1 chooses map. IDK just tossing around ideas.
5 Jan 2016, 02:37 AM
#111
avatar of StringBean

Posts: 15

There are a lot of great things that have been posted in this discussion.

Ciez nailed the discussion of balance between the top and bottom so I wont comment further on that.

I think a lot of us have fallen in love with Coh2 because its not a mirror match game. I personally love the unique factions and having some factions specialize late and early game. I think the problem is that relic focuses too much on these faction specializations (sort of what Ciez touched on). The coh1 Wehrmacht vs USF was the perfect example of achieving balance with factions having advantages late and early game. USF had the early game advantage, but the Wehrmacht had tools to compete with them (mgs and snipers). Wehrmacht however had the late game advantage, but keeping your units alive rewarded USF players by allowing them to still have a chance to win late game with veterancy (I miss the "ohh yeah" moments of seeing vet 3 rifles in coh1, in coh2 vet 3 is no big deal). So I think it is possible to achieve balance when there are unique factions, its just harder and takes more effort.

Quick note on 1v1 and team games: When a faction is designed to not have caches (OKW) and then all of a sudden is granted those excess resources through teammates, you will never achieve balance in both 1v1s and team games until you decide to balance them separately (topic for different thread).

Now for more of my personal opinion:

I totally agree 1v1 is in one of the most balanced states it has ever seen. However, I believe Ostheer needs some help (and probably UKF, but I haven't played with them much so I wont post my opinion about that). Being in college I don't have the time to play often. Typically what I do is play the faction I am lowest rank with to try and improve my skill overall in the game. Over Christmas break I have taken up the challenge with the Ostheer and have learned some stuff in the process.

Ostheer is currently very much a pay to win faction in my opinion. I have not spent a cent on any commanders in this game (I think they are way over priced because usually you can get away without them). If you don't have mechanized or the Ostruppen commanders (like me) you are in trouble since I believe these commanders make up for what the faction currently lacks. Ostruppen gives you enough infantry to keep up with the hordes you face when playing against USF and Soviets. With their cheap reinforcement costs they don't drain MP either. They are also ideal for capturing team weapons with their larger squad sizes and less vulnerable to demos and mines. Mechanized gives Ostheer access to early game vehicles that allow them to go keep up with USF and Soviets. Pgrens in a half track gives Ostheer the light vehicle that can chase down and eliminate retreating squads (a little too effectively in my opinion) and also provides the stug A early on.

Ideas for fixing the faction: I would love to see some health improvements for grens. They seem really squishy to me. This combined with a squad size of only 4 gives them a large disadvantage vs soviets and usf. Mines and demos are nightmares (yes I use sweepers, but when you are trying to take back as much of the map as possible with the tiny windows you are given you cant have them everywhere) and if your crew weapons get caught out of position in the slightest and you lose them they are almost impossible to recrew. I also think the 222 could use some kind of health buff. It is easily one of, if not the, worst light vehicle option in the game and without it the Ostheer have no light vehicles to contribute to the light vehicle heavy mid game. I would also love to see the pgrens receive some attention. For what you get for their cost and the timing they hit the field (you always need a pak first) they are disappointingly ineffective. Something else that would be interesting to implement is demo charges for the Ostheer (I know this is highly unlikely and I am sure the allied fan boys gasp at the thought), but for a faction that only has s mines for AI mines it would be nice to have something that required sweepers to find (s-mines have nice big warning signs) and provides a huge threat to those allied blobs ;)

Anyways sorry for the long post. I have been pondering these ideas for a few weeks and when I saw this thread I just had to chime in!
5 Jan 2016, 04:23 AM
#112
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

I would love to see more side grades in the game like UKF have. An Ost option to spend some manpower and fuel to get 5 man Grens/pios would be awesome.

I think all equip-able weapons should be limited to one per squad (buff the ones that are designed to be dual wielded if necessary but overall I think some late game infantry firepower is slightly too high anyways).

Push back tech slightly, light vehicles come so soon.

Shift some early game focus on aggressive factions into mid or late game if necessary and vice versa for late game factions.

Would post more specifics but sleepy time for me.
5 Jan 2016, 05:16 AM
#113
avatar of tightrope
Senior Caster Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 29

I think everyone should be on board with closer balance throughout the course of a match, rather than allies strong early, axis strong late.

Does anyone think that would make 4v4 play worse?
5 Jan 2016, 05:43 AM
#114
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440

I'm probably going to achieve the impossible and piss off both camps in this discussion but here goes.

Regarding certain extremely-high level of play factors, I cannot vouch for them as I only once caught a whiff of top 100 1v1, at least in CoH2. So I am going to trust Vindi and the high-end players on that one. Vindi's post is actually timeless, some of these problems with allied aggressiveness held true even in CoH1. To that end I support any efforts to make the game more balanced at all levels of play.

However, if the argument is that Relic should balance the game for top 20 (which is the reason this thread is so heated right now), I say, why stop there? Why not top 10? Why not top 5? Why not just make Jove the supreme balance guy and bar everyone else from posting in the balance forums, ever?

Why is 20 the magic number? Could it be because Vindi is playing at that sort of level and therefore only has that sort of perspective?

If anything, Relic needs to balance the game for top 1000 players, not top 20. The game also needs to be balanced for 4v4s, Relic should not lock themselves into 1v1 mentality.

People using Starcraft as the yardstick are barking up the wrong tree, even Blizzard couldn't replicate the success of SC1 even though they built SC2 from grounds up to be cast-friendly. The most popular games in existence are all coop/team games.

It is natural that more skilled people will gravitate towards 1v1s so I don't blame them for that but there is nothing wrong with the top 500 or top 1000 players, or hell, even the 4v4 players. So do not act like they do not exist.


+ 1
5 Jan 2016, 08:56 AM
#115
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2016, 23:01 PMCieZ
coh 2 academy text


Wow Ciez. That was some posting.
I realy enjoy reading your posts even if they are 100 miles long because at least 90% of what they contain is true and explain things properly. You should keep posting and ignore the idiots that have no idea about how to play the game.

Sorry for Vindicarex though. He tried to make a point, then the ketetof wisdom damaged our brains again....
5 Jan 2016, 09:06 AM
#116
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17891 | Subs: 8


Sorry for Vindicarex though. He tried to make a point, then the ketetof wisdom damaged our brains again....


5 Jan 2016, 09:12 AM
#117
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1





That was actualy funny.
But sorry, you were owned big time

5 Jan 2016, 09:41 AM
#118
avatar of A big guy 4u

Posts: 168



if you read through the thread you would know hes referring to the highest skill matchups, not just the average on ladder.


Which makes his argument extremely irrelevant to the average player.

Again, this is a non-issue that helps no one except the top players.
5 Jan 2016, 09:43 AM
#119
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1



Which makes his argument extremely irrelevant to the average player.

Again, this is a non-issue that helps no one except the top players.


Maybe others player have to improve before being affected by "imbalance" ? you can replace imbalance in everythread ( in this patch ) by "he outplayed me but i like to whine and blame the world", it works grealty
5 Jan 2016, 10:38 AM
#120
avatar of LuGer33

Posts: 174



Maybe others player have to improve before being affected by "imbalance" ? you can replace imbalance in everythread ( in this patch ) by "he outplayed me but i like to whine and blame the world", it works grealty


Including this thread, presumably?
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