russian armor

Penals weaker than conscripts??

9 Nov 2015, 12:36 PM
avatar of ADJM

Posts: 2

Recently I've been playing a lot of skirmishes as the Soviets and I could never quite decide wether to go with conscripts or penal. With conscripts I always felt that I had a major disadvantage over the German grenadiers (let alone against Sturmpioneers and Volks) often losing entire squads against the axis infantry. So I started to get Penals thinking that they were the equivalent to Grenadiers (with Conscripts being equivalent/ slightly better than Osttruppen). But even with the expensive (270 MP !!!) so called elite anti infantry Penal Battalion I still lost to the German Counterparts.

I decided to test penals vs conscripts with the help of this mod:

I found out that out of 10 firefights Penals lost 8 times against conscripts.

My question is that if Penals are so much more expensive than conscripts and have better rifles why are they so ineffective? Did relic just buff conscripts and forgot about Penals?

I also want to know how you guys play as the Soviets and how you counter the Axis Powers.

In my opinion the Soviets without any doctrines can barely hold up against the Wehrmacht and get completely massacred by the OKW. I get that relic wanted to portay the Soviets as weaker than the Germans but larger in numbers but having the same manpower cost like the Germans that doesn't make any sense to me.

What do you guys think?
9 Nov 2015, 12:45 PM
avatar of l4hti

Posts: 476

dont test penals vs cons firefight, that never happens.

Penals are yeah kinda bad. They scale somewhat with flamethrower. But they have no anti-vehicle capabilities. ATM sachel is bugged (zero damage to buildings).

T1 in general is quite dead. Snipers are too bad, flamer accutary in M3 got nerfed etc..

I usually build soviets in 1v1 like this:

4 cons
Maxim(s)/mortar(s) if you need
SU76s/Quad etc...
Call-in tank.
9 Nov 2015, 13:08 PM
avatar of Kozokus

Posts: 301


Penals do not fullfill the exact same role than conscripts. If you makes them fight, (which is very unlikely to happen) you will notice that the outcome of the battle depends of the distance that separate them. At long-maximum range, conscripts wins, at short range penals kills them all.
You will notice also that as a soviet, you will tend to loose any fair fight (1:1) you enter in. The point is to never give a fair fight and to strictly outnumber your opponent anytime.
As you pointed, we both have the same manpower but you will rarely find a german player willing to pay for more than 4 grenadier squads. However, a soviet player can very confortably go to 6-7 conscripts squads. Remember that until the 1st medium tank pop, conscripts squads can andle pretty much anything provided you have enough squads. A MG42 pinning 2 squads? you have 3 more for a nice hoora + molotov flanking. A 222? At grenade him to death. an AI halftrack? it can only target a single squad at a time.
The build order that gave you I4HTI is honest and i would go further with removing the medic and adding another conscript squad.

9 Nov 2015, 13:10 PM
avatar of ATCF
Donator 33

Posts: 587

Penals were originally 360mp and they beat grenadiers in a long range fight, but Relic decided to reduce their cost and turn their SVT 40 rifles to more of a close/medium range weapon, they usually need VET 2 or 3 to be effective on the field, otherwise they just die, and if you build a T2 to get some AT, you are going to delay your teching very much and probably get pushed of the map if you get too many penals

(Their Veterancy increases their accuracy by total of 60%, so if there are some LMG´s laying around on the ground, pick them up with penals, and you have a squad that shoots down everything, like the original Obersoldaten, since a LMG 42 has good stats, but when you increase its accuracy by another 60% its going to be godlike)
9 Nov 2015, 15:09 PM
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Penals aren't weaker then cons, its simply cons are much better utility, sustainability, they scale much better.

Penals can't do a single thing that cons can't except for bunker busting(since satchel is just shitty nade vs structures).

You go penals because you love penals, not because they are useful.
9 Nov 2015, 15:11 PM
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

Penals are durable (6-man, some rec acc vet bonus) flamethrower carriers with Oorah. They are nothing special other than that.
9 Nov 2015, 15:19 PM
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1

Far too expensive for what they do... and what they do exactly? They don't have an exact role, specially now that their satchel charge is a glorified grenade. Are they main line infantry? No, lack of long range DPS and too expensive. Are they elite infantry? No, not enough utility and not enough DPS.

They do have some of the best vet bonuses of the game, granted. But still they are lackluster, lose models, and as I said, don't actually have e role.

I would say either give them AVT upgraded (unlikely) or simply increase their long range Accuracy and DPS. Soviets already have good CQC units (Shocks, Partysans, PPSH Cons or even vanilla cons). I would recommend buffing their long range DPS, and adjusting their vet in a way that they can pull their weight against Vet3 LMG grens. Increase their reinforce price if needed (Not sure how expensive their reinforcement is). Oh, also remove the flamethrower.
9 Nov 2015, 15:21 PM
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Penals are durable (6-man, some rec acc vet bonus) flamethrower carriers with Oorah. They are nothing special other than that.

Vet3 cons are more durable.

Rifles have more firepower.
Elite rifles at vet3 are both more durable and have more firepower.

Penals are relic(pun intended) of the vanila coh2, they don't belong to current game with present stats and lack of role.
9 Nov 2015, 15:55 PM
avatar of KyleAkira

Posts: 410

2 penals with flamers + 2-3 guards works well as main infantry force.
The problems with conscripts is in late game that, even if they survive better with vet3, the damage output is very low vs vetted infantry.
9 Nov 2015, 15:57 PM
avatar of ADJM

Posts: 2

I really wish relic would lower MP cost for Penals to 240 and buff them a little bit (being on par with grenadiers). Only then they could be useful.

What I personally think could be interesting would be making conscripts like the german osttruppen. Or making a doctrine with the ability to call in fresh conscripts with the order 227 getting activated (like in the campaign).
9 Nov 2015, 16:01 PM
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

2 penals with flamers + 2-3 guards works well as main infantry force.
The problems with conscripts is in late game that, even if they survive better with vet3, the damage output is very low vs vetted infantry.

Right now you can just pick ppsh doctrine and enjoy yourself.

Conscript support tactics, while far from meta is rather valid choice for playing swarm of infantry and light armor with incendiary barrage support.

Even NKVD disruption tactics would be awesome if instead of rapid conscription it had ppsh.
9 Nov 2015, 16:16 PM
avatar of UGBEAR

Posts: 954

Make penal the soviet osttroopen, could be perfect
9 Nov 2015, 16:43 PM
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2015, 16:16 PMUGBEAR
Make penal the soviet osttroopen, could be perfect

And the reason to use them over cons would be...?

Because you know, cons are soviet osttruppen.
9 Nov 2015, 17:05 PM
avatar of Sedghammer

Posts: 179

PBs need a more defined role, or with their current stats need to cost less MP.
9 Nov 2015, 17:35 PM
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

I want penals to be something like weaker ostruppent without flametrower - cheap squad that can flood the game.

And conscripts should get DP28 upgrade for 40 munny cost once you build up tier4
9 Nov 2015, 19:09 PM
avatar of negativg

Posts: 24

From a design point of view I'd love to see them get PTRS+light AT mine upgrade (I'd remove the PTRS from guards, so they'd be solely AI, but elite at that, I never liked the idea of elite infantry running around with obsolete AT rifles in 1944).

Having light AT in T1 wouldn't hurt, I believe.
9 Nov 2015, 19:33 PM
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Penals will never be cheap spammable units, their unit profile is based on history and they should still follow it. For me they could be explosives specialists if they get guard nade and at nade without upgrade for example. Or a demo, mabe AT mine or sth else that fits them. And of course the fix to satchel against buildings. They can even cost 300 manpower then and I will still buy them.
9 Nov 2015, 19:43 PM
avatar of SpaceHamster
Patrion 14

Posts: 474

Satchels need to do more damage to buildings; like half one shotting or one shotting them damage.
9 Nov 2015, 20:27 PM
avatar of RedT3rror

Posts: 744 | Subs: 2

Add reinforce decrease upon vet. That way they can scale into late-game with a rather more fitting and uncommon (regarding all coh2 units) role: suicide attacks (squad wipes excluded).
10 Nov 2015, 00:13 AM
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

it's ironic that the flamer rifleman is one of the most fear allied units while the penal is one of the least used allied units.

the svt40 is just too weak to be useful. its mid and long range dps needs a buff.

and the satchel needs to ohk building again, it's one of the only uses it ever had.
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